Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 2nd, 2009

[Lise Bastien]

If they attend a provincial school, it's paid by the federal government. We call it a transfer of payment.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

The federal government pays the Quebec government?

[Lise Bastien]

If you're on a reserve and you go to provincial schools, sometimes the payment comes through the band and sometimes through the federal government.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

So let's say you live in a highrise in Montreal. Is the amount the federal government pays the Quebec government for that student on a per capita basis the same amount that they spend on a per capita basis for schools on reserve?

[Raymond Sioui]

Well, outside of the reserve is not paid through an agreement with the band council. Through the agreement with the band council we know that when some school boards send a resident of a community to a provincial school, there are many examples where the federal government would pay much more to the provincial school than they pay to send the same student residing on reserve to a first nations school. I think that's a major point.

The federal government would sometimes pay almost twice what they pay for a first nations school to receive the same child residing on reserve. For the outside, it doesn't go through the agreement with the community. It's a different transfer. We don't know too much about it.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Well, I hope you're not saying it's not public knowledge if the federal government is paying the provinces. Anyway, let's not spend time on that.

[Lise Bastien]

But there's something on special education that I think needs to be highlighted. Actually, there's a budget for special education, and if the province is asking money for special education kids, for first nations kids, it has a priority on the budget. So first nations have what remains on the budget and they don't ask for the same accountability.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Do you think there are any examples--maybe the chiefs would know--because of this inequality in the education systems, of parents actually moving off reserve in Canada so their children can attend a provincial school just because they're better funded? That would be a sad situation, but has that happened?

[Chief Conrad Polson]

No. People move off reserve because there's no money for housing for them, and that does create a problem in education funding.

But just to touch on what Lise was talking about in special education, we had a special high-needs child who had to go to a provincial school system. The Department of Indian Affairs had no problem paying $48,000 for that one child. We brought him home and they spent the same $48,000 for three children on reserve. So these are the problems we're facing in those areas.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

The Department of Indian Affairs pays, in the welfare system, in social assistance, penny for penny what the province pays. It's different in different provinces, but they match exactly penny for penny. So is it not inconsistent that in education they don't match penny for penny the provincial rates, that they pay a lot less on the education system on reserve?

[Chief Conrad Polson]

I don't think they pay the same in social assistance on reserve as they do off reserve.

[Lise Bastien]

The thing is, the tuition fees vary according to a region, not a province. In their funding formula they have to look at what type of school, the population, the social-economic situation, so there are factors to establish a tuition fee. That's why it's not as easy as the welfare system that is penny for penny. It's not the same thing.

So for comparable schools, we found out that in Quebec and in New Brunswick they pay more. Let's say they pay $12,000 per student, and in some cases they pay $13,000, and in another case they pay up to $22,000 per student. So it's different.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you.

In fact, there is no more time for questions or comments.

Chief, you can fit that in. Do you have a brief comment?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I have a very brief comment, and I'll be very blunt.

I think the intent is very clear here. It's to get the Indians out of the reserve and under the provincial system, in housing as well as in education. That's why the B.C. model is cited as a model across the nation. I think sometimes we tend to be too quick at painting everybody with the same brush. Quebec has a higher percentage of Indians living on reserve than does any other region in the country except for the north.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Chief.

Now we'll go to Mr. Clarke for five minutes. Mr. Clarke.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for attending here today.

The issue of education for first nations plays a big role in my life. Without education, I wouldn't be here. I'd also like to point out that I am first nations. I'm the only first nations member in the House of Commons. We do have self-identified Métis recognized as well. We're all here to understand education.

From my own past experiences, if it weren't for education, I wouldn't have had a job, I wouldn't have progressed, and probably I wouldn't be here today as an elected member of Parliament. I think some of the onus is on some of the first nations to take pride in ourselves and attend post-secondary education. I had to pay for part of my post-secondary education. I did have help from INAC, and I'm very grateful for that, but sometimes we have to take it upon ourselves to proceed further and continue our own education to whatever measures or goals we might want to attain.

Back in 2006, with the past minister for INAC, Jim Prentice, the First Nations Education Council and the Assemblée des Premières Nations du Québec et du Labrador signed a memorandum of understanding on education. The First Nations Education Council also received a contribution of some $731,000 for various initiatives, including $150,000 to implement the MOU and $365,000 to study the feasibility of creating first nations post-secondary education. Can you tell me the status of implementation of the study and where the study is now? Do you know?

[Lise Bastien]

I think you're mixing two things. Minister Prentice was at the forum, and we signed an agreement for a second-level services study that we presented in November. We got the fin de non recevoir that the work that had been done was quite good, but they didn't have money to implement it.

The other thing you referred to was on the post-secondary institutions in Quebec.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Is that on the $150,000 to implement the MOU?

[Lise Bastien]

No; it's for the MOU, but this was for the second-level services.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

It was for second-level services. Was this study tabled?

[Lise Bastien]

Yes.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Do you have a copy of that study that you would be able to provide to the committee?

[Lise Bastien]

Yes, we'll send you a copy.

I don't remember the name of the ADM we presented it to. I remember they thanked us for the good work, and they said that it would be useful for them, but they didn't have money to implement second-level services or to give follow-up on the results of that study. But yes, it has been done.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Do you know the date it was completed?

[Lise Bastien]

Do you mean when we presented it or tabled it?