Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on June 2nd, 2009

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Yes.

[Lise Bastien]

It was November. I'll find out the exact date.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

It was 2008.

[Lise Bastien]

Yes.

[Raymond Sioui]

I would like to add that in the memorandum we signed, there was a commitment to collaborate with us on the implementation of a more comprehensive first nations education system. We were hoping that following the presentation of that study we would go forward with that commitment, but the only answer we got was, “Nice study. Well done. It will help us in the future, but we have no money to fund this.” That was a very difficult answer when we presented the study. We did nice work, and they had no money to fund it, but they recognized the work that we had done.

[Rob Clarke, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I'm just curious here, coming from my home first nations community. I'm curious on the funding allocation provided to the first nations in Quebec. I know it goes back and forth with population, but I'm just kind of curious. For yourself, Chief Polson, how much funding is provided to your first nations for education right now? Who has control of the education portfolio?

[Chief Conrad Polson]

For a band-operated school we have $518,000 a year. We get maybe $200,000 extra for special education. Then we have maybe another $90,000, which may just disappear like that. That's what happens with a lot of the programs that are offered to the communities. They are never consistent, and for staff there is no security because from one year to the next the program will change. Have you noticed that the programs were announced last February, the criteria in December, and we're supposed to get results in mid-March, and then we still don't have the answers? We're going to summer holidays, and how do we plan for the next school year without those funds being committed when they're supposed to be?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

Thank you, Chief and Mr. Clarke.

I now recognize Mr. Lévesque, for five minutes.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to the Committee.

Of course, it is unpleasant to see that, in Canada, we can bring immigrants to this country and spend enormous sums of money trying to integrate them, and yet there are people born here that the government is not prepared to spend even small amounts of money on, so that they can really be part of Canada's population.

For example, in 2008, according to one study, there was a 6.2% loss in terms of minimum allocations needed to fund education which, as Grand Chief Picard mentioned, represents something like an additional $80 million that should be made available. Can we reasonably say that, this year, $90 million more would be needed to upgrade the educational system?

Furthermore, can you tell me whether the governance system for the monies allocated to the First Nations educational system is geared to today's needs?

[Raymond Sioui]

A little earlier, I referred to the need to remove the 2% cap. It is important to remember that this 2% has had an impact for more than 10 years and has resulted in funding losses for the First Nations over a 10-year period. Therefore, we are talking about a cumulative loss in Canada of more than $1.5 billion. For the 2008-09 fiscal year alone, I believe we are talking about a loss of $233 million for Canada as a whole. In Quebec, that loss is proportional. I believe that for 2008-09, it is about $25 million. The cumulative loss for Quebec was about $90 million. So, there needs to be some serious analysis and consideration of all that has been lost over the last 10 or 12 years, and a plan to allow us to catch up.

In answer to your second question, it is very important to have a more objective and more structured mechanism—hence the importance we attach to a funding formula geared to the needs of our schools that reflects all of our costs. That formula has never been reviewed. If someone thinks that a formula developed in 1988, based on an existing amount… They said there was this much money for tuition fees and split out the remainder.

As you say, in Quebec, more than $2,000 at the primary level, and more than $3,000 at the secondary level, is allocated to francize newcomers to Canada. This formula allocates approximately $400 to the First Nations for Aboriginal language and second language instruction. Is there something comparable in that regard? These are threatened languages.

The formula is outdated. If people are prepared to argue that it is not outdated, well, let them try, but they will have quite a challenge.

[Lise Bastien]

I also think you can always make comparisons—for example, when it comes to language instruction—but we have to stop improvising here. You do not improvise when you are funding things as critical as educational systems. You cannot say, for example, that this year, since we only have so many million dollars, people will just have to make due with that. Allocations have to be based on a needs analysis.

You could not come along and ask Canadians how much they are receiving for education, and just decide that that is enough, without first assessing actual educational requirements. All of the provincial systems have gone through that exercise. They determined what is needed for a quality system of education. After that, they look at how much that will cost and how much needs to be invested. You cannot just say we won't talk about needs, because this is all the money we have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You have 40 seconds.

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Also, Chief Polson, could you tell me whether the current system of governance is adequate and whether it allows you to make your own decisions?

[Chief Conrad Polson]

Are you asking if the programs are adequate?

[Yvon Lévesque, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

I am talking about the governance system. Do you have the power to set amounts and decide where you will be investing the money?

[Chief Conrad Polson]

No, we have to follow the criteria that are basically imposed on us to be able to operate the schools and stuff for education.

I wanted to comment on your very first comments about how this country is so willing to support immigrants who come to this country but finds it so difficult to support the first nations, who are actually the first people to be part of this country. Ms. Crowder talks about an imbalance; I think it's going to continue to be that way until the federal government starts to acknowledge and accept the fact that aboriginals have aboriginal rights and title over their territories. If a fair share of those natural resources were coming to the communities, we would not have to sit in these rooms and beg the government for dollars that actually belong to the communities.

I'm sorry, but that's been bugging me all morning. I've been wanting to say that, because those are the realities we're faced with.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

That's great.

Thank you, Mr. Lévesque.

Mr. Rickford, for five minutes.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you to the witnesseses for coming today on a very important subject and component of first nation issues.

I've had the opportunity to live in isolated communities in Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, and the Arctic Circle—not at all in Quebec—and I consider myself somewhat familiar with them. And I share some concern that there have been varying states of schools across the country in terms of their physical state and their capacity to deliver services, particularly beyond post-secondary and in terms of training. My own success in working with a number of isolated first nations communities has been that when you get the training proximally, either in the community or nearby, there's a better determinant for success. And we're working on that.

We heard earlier today that there may be funding gaps and structural problems. I would suggest with the greatest of respect that these are not phenomena of the last three years but they are in fact phenomena of perhaps the last twenty years, in generational terms, as first nations generally work in a ten- to fifteen-year plan. And we heard Chief Picard talk about an Auditor General's report identifying in the year 2000 the cost of doing nothing. So these are things I think any recent government would have to build on.

It seems to me there's a lot of good news out there. This particular government's plan has been to invest an additional $268 million over five years—and I see some nodding, suggesting acknowledgment—and $75 million a year subsequent to that. This is over and above the $1.7 billion that is invested in first nations education.

I can only say that in the last eight months that I've been a member of Parliament, we've announced at least ten new schools to be built in isolated first nations communities across the country. So given this torrid pace we're currently working at, I think we seek to deal with some very serious issues with respect to on-reserve schooling, certainly something I don't think previous administrations may be able to talk about.

I want to talk about moving forward here, in the last couple of minutes. FNEC has advocated for the re-establishment of first nations control over education. Specifically, what we're looking at is the government education partnership program, the tripartite education partnerships, and working with the provinces to collaborate more between first nation schools and organizations.

I've read your reports and I understand some of the concerns you have. But I also know that, on the flip side of this, some of the provinces have worked well with first nations communities to the extent that they make sure that when first nations students graduate from those primary and secondary schools they are at par with students from other provincial schools. And that has some benefit for their entry requirements into colleges and universities.

Do you support this kind of program? And certainly if not, why? And do you agree that our government, in general, has made steps in the right direction on a number of superordinate goals to address or remedy some of the unfortunate issues around education in the 13 years prior to our taking such action?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

You have about one minute. No, actually you have one minute and seven seconds. But we can come back—

[Lise Bastien]

Thank you.

I won't say you know that we disagree with the two initiatives that have been launched. The problem is that if you give money to a provincial school to improve services, you need to give the same thing to a band school in order not to compromise the gap between them and not to favour the integration of first nations into provincial schools.

I agree with you that first nations students should be at par. So why not look at the actual funding formula, which is not at par with the province, and make the important changes we need to make within our first nations schools?

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

But wouldn't you say the nature of this tripartite relationship is to identify what resources...? We heard earlier that it may not be simply a resource issue, that there may be substantive dimensions to education—and that may not be a resource issue—that prevent us from standardizing that.

[Lise Bastien]

The tripartite program concerns only first nations students who attend provincial schools.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Do I have more time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bruce Stanton]

In fact, Mr. Rickford, we have finished up here.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Okay. I'll respect the rules and go for next round.