Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 29th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 104 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs. We recognize that we are meeting on the unceded territory of the Algonquin and Anishinabe peoples.

Colleagues, before we start today, the House has introduced a new practice, which we've been asked to share with all members. This relates to avoiding audio feedback for our interpreters.

I'd like to remind all members and other meeting participants in the room of the following important preventative measures. To prevent disruptive and potentially harmful audio feedback incidents that can cause injuries, all in-person participants are reminded to keep their earpieces away from all microphones at all times.

As indicated in the communiqué from the Speaker to all members on Monday, April 29, the following measures have been taken to help prevent audio feedback incidents. All earpieces have been replaced with a model that greatly reduces the probability of audio feedback. The new earpieces are black in colour, whereas the former earpieces were grey. Please use only an approved black earpiece. By default, all unused earpieces will be unplugged at the start of a meeting. When you're not using your earpiece, please place it face down on the middle of the sticker for this purpose, which you will find on the table, as indicated.

They've now given us “put your earpiece here” stickers, so we ask everybody to abide by that. Please consult the cards on the table for guidelines on preventing audio feedback incidents. The room layout has also been adjusted to increase the distance between microphones and reduce the chance of feedback from an ambient earpiece.

I thought my eyesight deteriorated over the week we were away and that the back of the room had become much farther away. I think we have people back there. Welcome.

[An hon. member]

It's far.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

It's far, yes. That's part of the new measures.

These measures are in place so that we can conduct our business without interruption and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. I thank everyone for their co-operation.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting today for its study of “Report 2—Housing in First Nations Communities” and “Report 3—First Nations and Inuit Policing Program” of the 2024 reports of the Auditor General of Canada.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. We have, from the Office of the Auditor General, Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada, and Doreen Deveen, director.

You will have up to five minutes of opening remarks for each of the reports, if you'd like, and then we'll get into our rounds of questions.

It's over to you. The floor is yours. Welcome.

[Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General]

I just want to confirm that we are doing housing first and that I only have to read the opening statement on housing now.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's right. We'll do one five-minute opening statement and then rounds, and then we'll come to the second report and do another opening statement on that one.

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, thank you for this opportunity to discuss our report on Housing in First Nations Communities, which was tabled in Parliament on March 19, 2024.

I want to begin by acknowledging that we are gathered on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people. This area is also known as Ottawa. I express my gratitude and respect to all indigenous peoples who have contributed to shaping and safeguarding the beautiful lands they call home throughout Canada.

Many people living in first nations communities do not have access to housing that is safe and in good condition. Overall—

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm sorry. We'll pause there.

Ms. Idlout, go ahead, please.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

I'm so sorry to interrupt the speaker, but we weren't able to see the speaker for quite a bit of time. I wonder if that can be addressed.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're just checking with the technical team. We'll pause for one second until we get everything up and running this morning.

Okay, it looks like we're good. Lori, you should be able to see our guest now.

Please continue. Thank you.

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you.

Overall, we found that Indigenous Services Canada and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, or CMHC, made little progress in supporting first nations to improve housing conditions in their communities.

Indigenous Services Canada, or ISC, and CMHC are responsible for working with first nations to meet their housing needs by 2030. Although $4 billion was spent over the past five years to build new homes, repair existing ones, and increase first nations’ capacity to manage housing, we found that in 2023, 80% of needs were still not met. The percentage of homes that need major repairs or replacement remains largely unchanged, despite the spending that has gone into building and repairing homes. In 2021, the Assembly of First Nations estimated that $44 billion was needed to improve housing in first nations communities, and needs continue to grow.

We found that the department and the corporation had not prioritized communities with the greatest needs. First nations communities with the poorest housing conditions received less funding than communities of the same size with better housing conditions.

Mould in first nations homes is a long-standing health hazard. We found that Indigenous Services Canada and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation still did not know the magnitude of the problem. In fact, the department and the corporation are currently not following the strategy they developed in 2008 to address this problem. Neither could explain why the strategy is no longer used.

There is no plan in place to tackle this issue. This is the fourth time since 2003 that we are raising the alarm about unsafe and unsuitable housing in first nations communities. Adequate housing is a basic human need. After four audit reports, I can honestly say that I am completely discouraged that so little has changed and that so many first nations individuals and families continue to live in substandard homes.

Time after time, whether with housing, policing, safe drinking water or other critical areas, our audits of federal programs to support Canada's indigenous peoples reveal a distressing and persistent pattern of failure. The lack of progress clearly demonstrates that the government's passive, siloed approach is ineffective and, in fact, contradicts the spirit of true reconciliation. A fundamental shift is urgently needed to drive significant progress in providing proper support to indigenous families and communities across the country, especially those most in need, who currently are too often left behind.

While the government is at the early stages of transferring its responsibilities for housing to first nations, unless the department and corporation take meaningful action to address the issues we have identified, it is unclear if the transfer will be successful. It is important to understand that these are not legacy issues that live in the past. They are ongoing and perpetual, with direct consequences that people experience on a daily basis. They stand in contradiction to Canada's commitment to truth and reconciliation.

We made eight recommendations to improve the government's delivery of housing programs to first nations communities. We are concerned that Indigenous Services Canada and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation only partially agreed with our recommendation that they work with communities with the poorest housing conditions to ensure they receive the support they need to improve housing conditions.

This concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you so much for those opening comments.

I will point out to members before we start our rounds of questions that we invited the ministers and officials to join us today for the Auditor General's two reports. Unfortunately, due to their schedules, they weren't able to join us, so that's why we have both of the Auditor General's reports happening today. There may be technical items that would be more appropriately addressed to the officials and the ministers. I know the Auditor General and her team will do the best they can to answer, but there may be times when they will need to deflect to the departments.

We are working with the ministers' teams to find dates to have them come for follow-up questions on both of these studies. I don't have dates, but we are trying to get them as soon as possible.

Just as you get into your questions, know that this may be a response you get. However, we're going to have the best conversation we can based on the study that was done, particularly now in this first hour on housing.

First up I have Mr. Zimmer for six minutes.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you once again, Karen, for this report. I asked you if I could say “Karen”, as it's a little easier and a little nicer.

I was just up in a remote community, where I met Kevin. He was there raising his three grandchildren in a very difficult housing situation. There was mould in different spots in the house. I don't think there was one working window in the house. The bathroom sink couldn't function. Can you imagine a bathroom not working with all these kids and what kind of situation that was? I'm sure they felt despair in that situation.

I contrast that with Brian. Many years ago, his parents were couch surfing, and eventually they got a house. He said it was life-changing for them as a family. Once his dad had a house, he became an electrician, his mom became an administrator and the world opened up to them in a positive way. You have two contrasts—despair and opportunity.

What's troubling for me is what you mentioned in your report. This was brought up before, and I empathize with you if you've been in the office that long—maybe not as the boss, but working in the office. This has happened before. In a previous Conservative government in 2008, there was a report similar to this report. Some action actually happened from it. It was called the mouldy housing strategy and there was a real effort to combat those issues in those terrible housing situations.

I'll get to my question, but I'd like you to expand on that a bit more. Didn't you find that they were following that advice and using the methodology of making sure things get better?

[Karen Hogan]

You're pointing out something that I mentioned, which was having four audits and seeing that conditions have not dramatically improved. Over the last few years, about $4 billion has been spent. While it has gone to building homes and doing major repairs, it has resulted in very little meaningful improvement in conditions across all the communities.

When it comes more directly to mould, it was a recommendation we gave in one of our previous audits. We audited housing in 2003, 2006, 2011 and now in 2024. The mould strategy, I believe, was out of our 2003 or 2006 audit. We saw in 2011 that it was developed, but we made recommendations around it not being fully implemented or being fully followed. It was surprising to come in now and find out that no one could explain to us why they're not using it anymore.

There are a few things missing. It's not just about having a strategy; it's about knowing the extent of the mould problem. You need to gather data for that. We found that there was only one regional office in Alberta that was doing that for a while and then they stopped.

This is why my overarching comment about the passive approach the government is using is that it will not drive meaningful change. If you don't know the extent, how do you know what you need to fund and how do you know who needs help? I would chalk that up to needing a wholesale different approach to tackling this problem.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Using the word “passive” is kind, I believe. After nine years....

To give a fulsome explanation, “A strategy was developed in 2008 by Indigenous Services Canada (then named Indian and Northern Affairs Canada), the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, and the First Nations and Inuit Health Branch at Indigenous Services Canada...in partnership with the Assembly of First Nations.” You had everybody at the table really trying to step up and fix the problem.

I think you mentioned the billions—I'm sorry I missed it. You mentioned how many billions have been spent after nine years. Perhaps you could reiterate the percentage for the housing need that still exists out there.

[Karen Hogan]

Our audit period spanned five years. It has been over the last five years that about $4 billion has been spent on either major repairs or building new homes. However, 80% of the needs that had been identified in 2021 remain unmet.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Eighty per cent are still unmet.

[Karen Hogan]

Yes. That's linked to one of our big recommendations, which was that you need to have a plan to figure out how to fund investments going forward.

The Assembly of First Nations identified in 2021—they just updated their estimate—that it was about $44 billion, but no plan was put in place to determine how the government was going to fund and finance it going forward.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Karen, I just have just a few seconds left.

There are frustrations on both sides of this equation. You have first nations communities, which have to live in this sort of situation where there's this huge amount of need and nothing is getting done. It's very frustrating. On the other side, you have taxpayers, who are giving lots of their taxes to fix the problem. They're trying to help and for some reason that bridge is never built. That gap is never filled. There are frustrations on both sides, especially after this government has been here for nine years. You would expect some progress.

Thanks for your work. I appreciate what you do.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We will go next to Mr. McLeod, who will have six minutes.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our visitors here today for the presentation. We certainly appreciate the discussion on this very important issue.

I represent the Northwest Territories. In my previous life as a cabinet minister of the Government of the Northwest Territories, I was the minister responsible for housing. It was a challenging position. Housing is in crisis mode and has been for some time in the Northwest Territories. When I was elected in 2015 as an MP, it didn't take long before housing came to be the biggest issue at all of our community meetings with municipalities, indigenous governments and the Government of the Northwest Territories.

Indigenous housing funding was non-existent with the previous government, so we had to create a channel to get money flowing. On affordable housing and homelessness, every day we heard about those issues. Even to this day, we still hear about them on a regular basis. Today I heard from the community of Tuktoyaktuk, where they are facing a significant shortage of professional housing for teachers. They may not be able to operate their school properly in the next coming school year.

There's still a huge gap. I'm finding in my job here as an MP that it's very difficult to deal with CMHC and Indigenous Services Canada, because we don't have the proper background. We don't have the statistics to back up some of the arguments that we're bringing forward.

Your report on housing in first nations communities did not examine any communities in the territories or any of the initiatives for people off reserve. As I said before, housing is the biggest issue in the communities of my riding. Could you explain why northern first nations were left outside the scope of this report? I recognize that we only have two reserves, but we have indigenous communities. They're not reserves; they're public communities, but they're indigenous communities. Some of them are 95% to 98% indigenous.

That's my first question.

[Karen Hogan]

I want to acknowledge that the $4 billion that's been spent over the last five years has absolutely helped improve conditions for many, but the need is so much greater than that.

When it comes to scoping, this audit was looking at just the first nations communities, and there are no reserves, as you mentioned, in some of the territories. Nunavut has no reserves. There are two in the Northwest Territories, which were eligible for this program starting, I think, in 2022. That's when they were eligible to start accessing some of the funding. Also, the Yukon has no reserves, so it's a very complex legislative environment.

They were excluded because this was about funding to communities on reserves. In my office, in 2022, I did look at homelessness, the national housing strategy and the access that certain indigenous communities can have to those programs. We looked more precisely at Yukon housing in 2023, and it is our intention to look at housing in the Northwest Territories in 2024.

As you may know, I am also the Auditor General for the three territories, and we recognize that housing is a concern that is top of mind for many people across our country. We are making sure that we can do our part by looking at how each level of government is tackling this. That's within the jurisdiction, obviously, of my mandate.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Thank you for that response.

As the auditor for the three territorial governments, your office conducts audits for territorial entities and programs. There was a report on the Yukon Housing Corporation released in 2022 by your office. The last time we had a similar audit for the Northwest Territories and Nunavut was 2008.

Given the importance of a housing program in both territories, can you just quickly clarify when that will be? I thought I heard you say that you're considering a new audit for the housing corporations in both Nunavut and the Northwest Territories.

[Karen Hogan]

We recently completed one for the Yukon. The Northwest Territories audit is planned for 2024, and our hope is that perhaps it will happen in the fall of 2024. For Nunavut public housing, the audit will most likely be done in 2025. We work very closely with the legislatures in the three territories to figure out what makes sense to them, because we typically provide one performance audit a year or so for each of the territories.

Those are the time frames for the Northwest Territories and the Yukon.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I would like to ask, if I have time, about the challenges of doing audits and the lack of statistical data available in the north. I know we come up against that in many different forms. Sometimes some of our applications for programs require certain information that doesn't exist in the north. Could you provide any suggestions on how we could improve the availability of the statistical data that we need?