Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 29th, 2024

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

You've also talked about the fact that they're having trouble getting police in a lot of communities. Did you look into why that was? Is it that the RCMP can't get enough people to join the RCMP? If so, why don't people want to join the RCMP? Is it more specifically that people don't want to go, for example, to remote communities? Not that I know whether you really have a choice if you're a member of the RCMP; I think you go where they tell you to go. What is the problem in recruitment?

[Karen Hogan]

I believe there's a much broader staffing issue with the RCMP having enough police officers. It's a great question to ask, should the RCMP be here. They did flag for us that remoteness is obviously an issue when it comes to staffing some of these positions.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

At one point, you mentioned that there doesn't seem to be enough indigenous police officers. Do you have specific numbers? Is it any different? In my neck of the woods, there's the Nishnawbe Aski Police Service, which I know has a fairly considerable number of indigenous officers. Did you look at exactly how many they have and how that compares to, for example, the Nishnawbe Aski Police Service, or NAPS?

[Jo Ann Schwartz]

No, we didn't look at the breakdown between the number of indigenous versus non-indigenous police officers. What we do know is that there was no national strategy or national approach in place by the RCMP on how to improve the staffing for the FNIPP, the first nations and Inuit policing program. That's something we made a recommendation about. We thought there should be a national approach on how to improve the situation.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

We're out of time.

I will now go to Monsieur Lemire, who will have six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Hogan, thank you once again for your presentation.

I'd like to come back to what my colleague Mr. Powlowski was saying about the labour shortage and lack of interest by indigenous peoples, in particular, in becoming police officers. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

First nations communities aspire to greater autonomy over the administration of policing services on their territories. That requires and deserves police services that are stable and adequately funded, at comparable levels to those provided in other communities in Canada.

The Assembly of First Nations calls upon the Canadian government and its provincial partners to designate first nations police services as essential services. Therefore, it's asking police services to be provided for and by indigenous peoples. That could impact recruitment and allow police officers assigned elsewhere in the country to go back and serve in their own communities.

Has that option been sufficiently explored?

Has the RCMP demonstrated willingness to transfer responsibilities directly to indigenous communities so that they can have their own police services?

[Karen Hogan]

It's important to note that it's not up to the RCMP to transfer those services. Public Safety Canada is responsible for negotiating those agreements.

At present, there are approximately 680 first nations communities. There are 36 self-administered agreements, and they cover 150 to 155 first nations communities.

Public Safety Canada received funding for the transfer of responsibilities so that communities can move from a tripartite agreement, where the services are provided by the RCMP, to a self-administered agreement. However, no community undertook a transfer during the course of our audit. The money was really used to finance the services that, at present, are negotiated under the agreement framework. However, Public Safety Canada's goal should be to ensure the transfers.

As I mentioned earlier with regard to housing, to ensure the successful transfer of responsibilities, communities need to have the capacity and the resources required to manage the situation.

Ms. Joanisse, is there anything you would like to add?

[Mélanie Joanisse, Director, Office of the Auditor General]

In the audit, we did not look at the new legislative framework in place, which is being amended to make policing an essential service, as you mentioned. We looked at the program as it currently stands. I want to make it clear that the new legislative framework will not, at this point, include community tripartite agreements involving the RCMP. The legislative framework will apply only to self-administered agreements. You can discuss it with the department.

During the audit, we looked at the two types of agreements currently in the program to see what improvements could be made.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Ms. Hogan, when you released your report, you mentioned that Public Safety Canada and the RCMP had taken measures that were not aligned with a specific objective, which was to build the trust of first nations and Inuit communities in the Government of Canada's commitment to truth and reconciliation.

Wouldn't promoting first nations self-determination improve communities' faith in police forces?

Do you think that, with autonomous police forces, first nations would have more trust in public safety systems?

[Karen Hogan]

Of course it would increase trust in the police system. We could increase that trust by having true negotiation of tripartite agreements.

Right now, as I mentioned, the auto-renewal of agreements is really a barrier to having regular conversations with communities. That's often what we hear when doing our audits. We are told that there is no real negotiation when the federal, provincial or territorial government comes to the table. We have to change that dynamic and encourage the transfer to self-administered police services.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

One of the challenges with self-administered policing is that first nations don't have access to property taxes to raise money for their police services.

On another note, how do you explain the lack of co-operation between the various police forces?

Does it still come down to systemic racism?

[Karen Hogan]

It is important to know that there is a history of racism within the justice system and police forces. That's why I would really encourage honest discussions among all parties.

At the moment, the RCMP does not sign the agreements. It is therefore important to ensure that the RCMP is aware of the agreements that will be reached, as well as the needs of first nations. The RCMP will then be better able to fill positions and secure the funding needed to provide equitable services.

This is consistent with our findings in all areas related to services provided to indigenous communities, whether it be drinking water, housing or policing. We really have to make sure that the communities are at the negotiating table. That is essential.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

That's the end of the six minutes.

We'll go now to Ms. Idlout for her six minutes.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

I want to inform you that I will be speaking in Inuktitut. Thank you.

First, I'd like to ask you about an audit you did—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Lori, I'm sorry to interrupt you. I'm going to pause your clock just to make sure everybody has their earpieces in place.

We're good to go now, so please carry on. If you'd like to start over, you're welcome to.

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

[Member spoke in Inuktitut, interpreted as follows:]

Thank you.

First, I'd like to thank you for your report regarding the police.

In the audit that you did on first nations and Inuit policing, how many Inuit communities were involved?

[Karen Hogan]

I can tell you that there are approximately 680 first nations and Inuit communities across the country. We looked at those that are covered by the self-administered program—about 155 communities—and then we looked at those covered by tripartite agreements—

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm sorry, but we have a point of order.

Mr. McLeod, please go ahead.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I'm not sure what happened, but I'm not hearing the witness's voice.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Okay. We'll check that.

Mr. McLeod said he's not getting—

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I think I'm still using interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

—Ms. Hogan's response on his headset.

[Michael McLeod, Liberal, Northwest Territories, NT]

I can hear you now.