Indigenous and Northern Affairs Committee on April 29th, 2024

[Lori Idlout, NDP, Nunavut, NU]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Shields, who will have five minutes.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I appreciate the Auditor General being here with us today.

What would be the first step in changing your discouragement about what you've seen for a number of years?

[Karen Hogan]

It would be to see concrete action that really has an impact on first nations communities.

I believe that the policies and practices that are currently being used by Indigenous Services Canada and CMHC predate many of the current commitments. They need to be updated. If self-determination is really what the government would like to see for first nations communities, then a different approach is needed. The current passive, siloed one isn't working.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You made a comment in your document that the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation doesn't have the legislative position to do what they need to do.

[Karen Hogan]

This was linked to transferring programs and initiatives to first nations communities. As I mentioned earlier, Indigenous Services Canada's goal should be to transfer all of its programs and services to first nations communities in the spirit of self-determination. The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation doesn't have a mandate to do that kind of dialogue and begin talking about transferring programs linked to first nations communities back to the communities. That's a legislative avenue that just doesn't exist for CMHC.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Would you suggest that it's something that should occur?

[Karen Hogan]

It's not my place to comment on policy, but I can highlight when there's a policy gap.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You talked about the worst and the evaluation. Whose responsibility is it to evaluate, as you said, those who are the worst and those who aren't? Whose job is it to evaluate that? Where's the criteria for that scale?

[Karen Hogan]

When you say the “worst”, do you mean the communities most in need?

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Yes.

[Karen Hogan]

It is really up to the communities to do the self-assessment. When I made reference to looking at communities with 100 housing units or fewer, it was the communities themselves that identified that 75% or more of their homes were in need of major repair or replacement.

It really does start with the community knowing what its needs are. That's why capacity building is critically important. We talk about housing managers. We found that very few small communities have housing managers, even a part-time housing manager, to help them figure out what is needed in the community and then help them apply for certain funding programs.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I understand the application process. It's program-funded.

If they lack the capacity, whose responsibility is it then? Is it Indigenous Services and CMHC? Whose responsibility does it shift to when they don't have that capacity?

[Karen Hogan]

I think this is where my recommendations and thoughts differ a bit from those of Indigenous Services and CMHC. It's the responsibility of CMHC and Indigenous Services Canada, if a community doesn't have a housing manager, to ask, “How can we support them? Do we have a way to help build that capacity or train someone or find it for them so they can identify their needs and then meet the program?” Our recommendations now are really trying to drive a change within the current practices and policies.

Putting that aside, I think a fundamentally different approach would drive, perhaps, a different outcome, and I think the questions you're asking me are what the department and the Crown are asking themselves. They don't want to impose this on first nations communities, but when they don't have capacity, they're never going to move forward. There needs to be a recognition that some communities might need different supports than other communities.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

That is the case in all our communities, from that point of view.

You said “shovel-ready”. The largest municipalities have a group of engineers who build all sorts of plans that sit on the shelf, and when the government says there's a program, they pull one off the shelf. Small communities can't do that, so what you're saying is there needs to be something in place for that gap.

[Karen Hogan]

Absolutely, and that's where the partial agreement came on our recommendation. The department and the Crown corporation believe that first nations should just identify their needs and apply, but I would like to see a much more proactive approach because the smaller communities can't do those two things.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

What about those communities—

[The Chair, Liberal, John Aldag]

I'm sorry, Martin, but we're out of time.

For the last member on the housing report, we're going to Mr. Powlowski for five minutes, and then we'll reset. We have another opening statement on the policing report, but Mr. Powlowski, right now the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I'll note one of my greatest failures as an MP. Let's face it: There have been a lot of failures. You can ask the Conservatives and even my colleague from Winnipeg.

[An hon. member]

We have a list.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

My greatest failure is the inability to find funding, federal funding, for Fort William First Nation's chronic care home, which I've been trying to do. Even my predecessor Don Rusnak was trying to do that, and everybody passes the buck: It's not INAN's responsibility; it's not Health Canada's responsibility; it's not CMHC's responsibility. However, in indigenous communities, as in any other community, people get old and have chronic problems or disabilities.

Who builds housing for them in first nations communities, and are we doing enough with respect to that? Did you look at that?

[Karen Hogan]

We didn't slice the demographic population of those in need, if that's where your question is coming from. I'd argue that census information will probably provide that kind of granularity, but we did not look at it here.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

This question goes beyond this specific study. Who determines what you look into, and if I ask you to, will you look into that?

[Karen Hogan]

I'm not sure I know what the request is for me to look into, but I always take suggestions from any member of Parliament or senator who would like to share topics with us, and we feed them into our audit selection. Ultimately, it is my decision to determine what, when and who we audit, based on a really comprehensive and rigorous process that is ongoing every year.