Evidence of meeting #20 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was measurement.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alan Johnston  President, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry
Gilles Vinet  Vice-President, Program Development Directorate, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry
Sonia Roussy  Vice-President, Innovative Services Directorate, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Welcome, witnesses and members of the committee, to the 20th meeting of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology, this June 3, 2010. We are here pursuant to an order of reference of Thursday, May 13, 2010, concerning Bill C-14, an act to amend the Electricity and Gas Inspection Act and the Weights and Measures Act.

We have in front of us four witnesses from the Department of Industry. Monsieur Cotton is the manager of the legislative and regulatory affairs division. Monsieur Vinet is the vice-president of the program development directorate at Measurement Canada. Mr. Johnston is the president of Measurement Canada. Madame Roussy is the vice-president of the innovative services directorate at Measurement Canada.

Welcome to all of our witnesses.

I understand the witnesses want to give a ten-minute opening statement, as is normal. In addition, they have five minutes of video in English and five minutes of video in French explaining the bill. I told them I would ask members of the committee if they wanted to see the second ten minutes of video, or if they just wanted to hear the ten-minute opening statement and go right to comments and questions.

Mr. Masse.

9 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I suggest that if we run out of questions we can watch the videos. If not, they can submit them to us as DVD presentations. It's highly unusual.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you for that opinion.

Mr. Lake.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

I think the video is supposed to be part of what might lead to questions from us. I know it's unusual, but it seems to make sense if we want to understand more about the bill before we get into our study. Surely a video might help us to do that.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Mr. Masse.

9 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Obviously these videos were produced beforehand, so I don't know why they weren't submitted to our offices with the other packages we received. It's highly unusual, to begin with. Second, there was production of the videos, so I'd like to know the date and time the videos were produced and available.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you.

9 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Do other members have opinions on this?

9 a.m.

Bloc

Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Do you want to see that?

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Mr. Bouchard, do you want to watch the videos?

9 a.m.

Bloc

Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Yes.

9 a.m.

The Chairman

There are five minutes in French and five minutes in English.

9 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Ah! I thought there were five minutes in English and five minutes in French.

9 a.m.

Some members

Ah, ah!

9 a.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

Nice job there.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

I think there's consent to see the videos.

9 a.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

There isn't consent.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

There's consent among most of the members of the committee.

Is there a motion to watch the videos? Mr. Wallace so moves.

(Motion agreed to)

We will begin with the ten-minute opening statement from the officials from Measurement Canada. Then we'll proceed to the videos.

9 a.m.

Alan Johnston President, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for the opportunity to speak today about Bill C-14, the Fairness at the Pumps Act, as well as about Measurement Canada.

Measurement Canada is mandated to ensure the integrity and accuracy of trade measurement in Canada, by contributing to a fair and competitive marketplace for Canadians through the administration of the Weights and Measures Act and the Electricity and Gas Inspection Act. Services provided by Measurement Canada include the approval of devices prior to being introduced into the marketplace, the calibration and certification of test equipment used to inspect devices, the initial inspection of devices prior to their being put into service, as well as periodic inspections of devices once they are in service. Measurement Canada also addresses consumer complaints and disputes related to trade measurement issues in numerous trade sectors, such as retail, wholesale petroleum, dairy, retail food, fishing, logging, grain and grain crops, and the mining sectors.

A good trade measurement framework should have both mandatory periodic inspections as well as random inspections. The mandatory inspections are a preventative measure of ensuring issues are identified and corrected. In most cases, consumers and other purchasers of measured goods cannot easily tell if the measuring device they are using is measuring accurately and if they are actually receiving the amount of product they pay for. For example, it is difficult to tell if you have actually received 20 litres of gasoline as opposed to 19.5 litres, once it has been pumped into your car's fuel tank. Mandatory inspections reduce the risk of this happening by increasing the frequency with which the accuracy of measuring devices is checked.

Random inspections will be used to target known problem areas, to catch those suspected of not playing by the rules, and to provide a more accurate snapshot regarding the status of measuring devices in the marketplace.

Up until the mid-1970s there were mandatory legislated requirements for government inspectors to annually certify the accuracy of every device used in financially based measurement transactions. In the mid-1970s this requirement was amended to require government inspectors to conduct these inspections every two years. Government inspectors charged fees for these inspections. In the 1980s the government decided to remove the requirements for mandatory inspections and associated fees due to resource constraints, and it was believed that the marketplace could manage itself.

Once the requirement for mandatory inspection frequencies was removed, periodic inspections were performed on what was called a "selected” or “targeted” basis, meaning that Measurement Canada focused its discretionary resources to areas it believed to be problematic.

What we noticed, though, was a troubling trend. Data showed that measurement accuracy in financially based measurement transactions was dropping in some areas as our presence in the marketplace was reduced. Some sectors or device types where we had a limited presence had chronically low compliance rates, an indication that the marketplace is not fully managing itself. Devices in the eight trade sectors that would initially be regulated under Bill C-14 often remain in service for years before being recalibrated or inspected.

Measurement Canada was concerned about these poor compliance rates and began consulting with stakeholders to determine whether they shared the same concerns and to begin identifying what could be done to correct the situation. Consultations took place with stakeholders in sectors such as downstream and retail petroleum, retail foods, mining, and grain and field crops, among others. We were truly looking to see if we could find an appropriate level of government intervention in the marketplace. Almost every trade sector came back with consensus recommendations that mandatory inspection frequencies should be reinstated and that these could be implemented via the use of authorized service providers, with the caveat that Measurement Canada continue to provide a strong oversight role.

Implementing these recommendations would require legislative amendments. In an attempt to enhance the protection afforded to vulnerable parties such as consumers, Measurement Canada tried to implement the various trade sector recommendations via a voluntary program in 2004. Not a single regulated party expressed interest in taking this up. Stakeholders told Measurement Canada that these inspections would only take place if they were required by law or regulation.

Accordingly, in 2005 Measurement Canada initiated a review of both the Electricity and Gas Inspection Act and the Weights and Measures Act. This initiative was announced in the 2006-07 Industry Canada report on plans and priorities. Consultations then began with a view to confirming that stakeholders in various trade sectors still believed in the various recommendations set out in the trade sector review recommendations.

While compliance rates for gas pumps are typically around 94%, compliance rates for meters used to deliver home heating oil and for devices used to sell propane are around 70%. Measurement compliance rates in some industrial sectors, such as mining and logging, are typically around 50%, and the bias is largely in favour of the device owner.

In 2008 a CanWest story entitled “Hosed at the Pumps” put the state of trade measurement accuracy in Canada under the microscope. It pointed to compliance rates of 94% for gas pumps, devices the majority of Canadians use on a regular basis. As the bias was significantly skewed in favour of traders, the public reacted strongly to the story and demanded something be done to ensure they get what they pay for at the gas pumps.

Measurement Canada believes that Bill C-14 will go a long way toward protecting consumers and honest businesses by contributing to a fair and competitive marketplace for all Canadians. Our consultations with stakeholders have consistently indicated that the majority of Canadians are expecting this level of protection when they buy or sell products or commodities on the basis of measurement.

I look forward to discussing these legislative amendments with you. Thank you very much.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

Thank you, Mr. Johnston.

We'll take a brief suspension to allow the technicians to sort out the technical problems and then we'll proceed to the videos. This meeting is suspended.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Michael Chong

We're coming out of suspension. We're going to resume the meeting. Unfortunately, the video will not play, for technical reasons.

We'll begin with an hour and a half or so of questions and comments from members, beginning with Mr. Garneau.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll begin by asking how many gas pumps there are in Canada that are going to be subject to inspection from now on.

9:15 a.m.

President, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry

Alan Johnston

We estimate approximately 130,000 gas pumps in Canada.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC

Thank you.

Currently, how many inspectors are there?

9:15 a.m.

President, Measurement Canada, Department of Industry

Alan Johnston

We have approximately 84 weights and measures inspectors, but these inspectors do more than gas pumps. They're involved in all the trade sectors. For example, they do retail scales, they do mining, they do logging scales. So they're not solely dedicated to gasoline pumps.