Industry Committee on Dec. 9th, 2010

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

All right, guys, we're getting giddy here.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Your last question, then, Mr. McTeague.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Bilodeau, regulated industries.... Should Mr. Vincent's bill pass, and we're dealing with questions that might look into the area of securities, which tend to be provincial jurisdiction the last time I checked.... The Americans are going through this whole process right now through the commodities futures exchange commissions to change the way in which derivative traders can avoid transparency or avoid any type of regulatory oversight.

A power of investigation would not derogate, detract, or take us away from the traditional areas, which are verboten for the bureau to investigate other industries, ministries, provincial crown corporations, etc.? Do you have that authority? Would you have that authority? Would that be a problem?

[Richard Bilodeau]

To be quite frank with you, Bill C-452 doesn't give parameters or limits, or indicate what grounds we would have to commence an inquiry into that entire industry sector, so I'm not sure how I can answer your question.

I can tell you that we currently have the power under the act to investigate crown corporations that conduct business. That change was made in 1986, or maybe a bit later than that. But there's a bit of a lack of information in Bill C-452 on the triggers, grounds, and scope. Is it an entire industry, or a subsection of that industry? What does industry really mean? So I'm having a bit of trouble answering your question.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

There has been a traditional hands-off approach to other governmental agencies, as far as investigations are concerned. Should there be a request, for instance, of the Manitoba Securities Commission related to the intercontinental exchange, which operates and has its own futures trading that may adversely affect a price or supply?

[Richard Bilodeau]

There are securities regulators in the provinces, and it is up to them to regulate securities trading. It's not something that's in the Competition Act, and it's not in our mandate to inquire into certain practices in the securities trading sector and the specificity of matters that come up under the jurisdiction of those agencies.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Sorry, I believe Mrs. Einbinder....

[Richard Bilodeau]

I will turn it over to Ms. Einbinder-Miller.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Please. Thank you.

[Rhona Einbinder-Miller, Acting Executive Director and Senior General Counsel, Competition Bureau, Legal Services, Department of Industry]

In addition, if we went into an inquiry on regulated activities or a particular industry, that could raise constitutional concerns.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

That's why I raised it.

Monsieur Vincent.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

The Union of Quebec Municipalities called for an investigation into contracts granted in construction. I think that if the Competition Bureau had the power to investigate, it would have investigated it. It did not do so. We must not lose sight of the fact that in the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia and at the European Union, that power exists, but it has been removed here in Canada.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

I mention this because the rapid and unexplained increase in commodity prices since 2007 has been driving the public's concerns. It probably has very little to do with something the Competition Bureau can determine, and a lot more to do with the dysfunctional nature of our securities system in this country. As a result, people are left hanging.

It is possible that your bill does not cover this issue. I simply wanted to make that comment. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, those were my questions.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. McTeague.

Monsieur Bouchard, you're trying to get my attention.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

As Mr. Vincent is the sponsor of Bill C-452, I would like him to make some brief concluding remarks and to add any points that he was unable to raise.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

As I already told Mr. McTeague, in essence this bill seeks to establish a power to investigate. Other countries have this power. Mr. McTeague is fascinated by the price of gas.

Are you aware that oil and gas companies determined that their only competition is the result of costs required by municipalities? Within a municipality, the price of gas is uniform, but in a smaller municipality, for example, the price is different. It may be lower. Oil and gas companies do not compete with each other. Competition is at the municipal level. That is where the difference lies, and that is where we want action. We want truly competitive prices. As Mr. Wallace mentioned earlier, when he worked for Texaco, he used binoculars to check prices. Looking at a competitor's price and adjusting our own is not competition. For there to be true competition among oil and gas companies, prices at one company must be lower than those at another so that they lower their prices. That way, everyone doesn't have the same price.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

That concludes our meeting. We'll meet next Tuesday, hopefully with a full scope of witnesses.

The meeting is adjourned.