Justice Committee on Feb. 9th, 2009

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Thank you.

Minister, I have just a couple of questions.

One is this. When you deal with issues of crime and safety, there's a whole spectrum of things, and the question I might ask you might legitimately belong in the public safety portfolio, but here's the question. You have in fact been spending over a billion dollars on incarcerating prisoners, legitimately so. You've been passing legislation that's been toughening up sentences and lengthening sentences for various crimes. Yet the money you've budgeted in the last two fiscal years on crime prevention can't get out the door. We are not spending the money preventing crime. We're not assisting the crime prevention groups that exist across this country that are actually clamouring for resources, that want to do crime prevention so that people don't get into a life of crime. How does that make sense to you? Canadians would wonder. You have this government that has this schizophrenic attitude, spending billions of dollars on incarcerating people, toughening up sentences, lengthening sentences, yet not spending enough money, not getting it out the door on crime prevention.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I disagree with you, Mr. Dosanjh.

First of all, with respect to issues of public safety and the costs of incarceration, of course that would be more accurately directed to my colleague Mr. Van Loan. But with respect to the initiatives, I've indicated to you the national anti-drug strategy, and I think just within my opening comments I named a number of different groups that receive money. We're working with our provincial-territorial partners. We're prepared to support innovative ideas, and we have been doing that. We've been assisting these individuals, and if you know of groups or individuals who have innovative ideas that they want to—

Just the drug courts, for instance, or the aboriginal justice strategy—these are ongoing expenditures and they are designed to help break the pattern of repeat criminal activity, and I think they've been a success.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

But Minister, tell me this. How is it that your government can't get the money out of the door on crime prevention?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I think we're doing that.

I can tell you that we've put $7 million in funding for Health Canada's community initiatives to help communities—they're getting that out; $3.3 million to enhance the ability at Canada Border Services to inhibit the flow; $220,000 for a drug intervention program, one specific one with respect to aboriginal youth; $300,000 to improve addiction programs. All of these, $250,000—

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Could you speak a little more slowly please. The interpreters are having a hard time keeping up with you.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm sorry. I have such little time.

But I think we're getting it out the door, Mr. Dosanjh. Again, I'm the first one to agree that it has to be a comprehensive approach.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Let me just say that, of the $43 million, less than half of it actually went out the door on crime prevention in the fiscal report already.

On drug treatment courts, you put out a press release in November of last year providing resources for drug courts in Canada. Have there been any extensive, comprehensive studies on the only drug court that exists in Canada, which is in Vancouver? If there have been, what were the results?

I am from Vancouver, and as a former attorney general who actually was campaigning for drug courts, I'd like to know what the studies are showing.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

As a matter of fact, with respect to the court in Vancouver, there is an ongoing study, which I would expect will be completed by March of this year. In answer to your next question, we will post that and we will certainly make that available.

There are drug treatment courts in six different cities across this country. We are very pleased with the feedback we have received, but we are doing an evaluation, so you will see the one for Vancouver and you will get the evaluation from all of them. I believe the results will be positive and you will agree with me that these are very helpful in breaking that cycle of dependency.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Dosanjh, you have five seconds.

[Ujjal Dosanjh, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'll be very quick.

You issued a press release expanding this program, providing more resources. Did you have a study done on the Vancouver drug court before you actually did this, and what did that study say?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

A quick answer.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

There have been ongoing analyses of all the drug courts in this country, and as I say, you'll be pleased to know that those evaluations will be posted in March.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Monsieur Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Good day, Minister. I don't think we've had the chance to talk. I have listened carefully to the answers you gave earlier to my colleague opposite. I have 30 years of experience in the field of criminal defence law and as a criminal lawyer, I'd like to ask you a question. A certain problem has been noted and I would hope that it has been brought to your attention more than once. If not, you can be assured that I will take it upon myself to remind you.

The problem as we see it is not when criminals enter the correctional system. And it will not be resolved by imposing minimum prison terms. The problem, sir, occurs when criminals are released. They are released too soon, before serving their full sentence. I'm a criminal lawyer, so I know what I'm talking about. It's not normal for someone who has been sentenced to 22 months in prison to be released after four months. That's not normal, sir. I could give you myriad examples of cases just like this.

For starters, when do you intend to submit recommendations, proposals or suggestions for amending the Criminal Code and reviewing the Parole Act, to tighten up release conditions? When are you planning to do away with the famous one-sixth provision? You know what I'm referring to. I know from experience as a criminal lawyer that when a judge imposes a 36-month sentence on my clients, they don't worry too much when they are incarcerated because they know they will be out in six months. The public is fed up with this arrangement. I can assure you that Quebeckers have had enough.

So then, my first question is this: when do you intend to bring in some amendments? I don't see this listed anywhere as one of your priorities and I was merely wondering if it is a priority for you.

I have a second question, and a third, if time allows. I am very concerned about young people and especially about the problem of Internet predators and Internet crime. Is your department planning to allocate any funding or assistance or to strike a committee to work on legal considerations—that's what we're interested in—to put an end to Internet crime and curtail the activities of Internet predators? We know all about these crimes. Are there programs in place that will be renewed?

I'm concerned about these two issues and I would appreciate some answers.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Monsieur Lemay, with respect to any changes to parole, that of course would be the purview of the Minister of Public Safety. I would certainly be pleased to pass on any comments you have. I will do that on your behalf.

I'm surprised about, and I hope you will reconsider, your opposition to mandatory jail times. On the one hand, you made the comment that they're out too soon, but then you're against mandatory jail times. Again, I'm hoping you will keep an open mind. Certainly the Tackling Violent Crime Act has mandatory jail times, and I think that's going to work.

To your comments with respect to cyber crime, I think Canada is cooperating with agencies. You alluded to this being an international problem, that this is not something that takes place just in Canada. Quite frankly, I'm pleased with the amount of cooperation that is now taking place between countries. You will remember the individual in Southeast Asia who was accused of molesting children. That individual's face went around the world. That's the kind of cooperation that is now taking place between government agencies and governments around the world. This is the kind of thing we are doing.

Again, I appreciate the challenges. As I indicated with identify theft, trying to stay on top of all the innovations and changes that have taken place with respect to technology is a continuing challenge.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We'll move on to Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you again, Minister, for being here.

Not wanting to waste any time with the niceties, I'd like to get down to business.

People look at Parliament and they see committee work being done. Then there's a new session of Parliament and we seem to be visiting different areas instead of the unfinished business we have.

Minister, I'm talking about the sex offender registry. You mentioned that it is an international problem. We know that. You've made reference to one of the most famous cases where there was international cooperation. Well, if there's international cooperation, I think what we need in this place is national cooperation. People pay a lot of money to get us here, and they expect us to do things. The sex offender registry is a piece of legislation that we have to visit; it's gathering dust.

I wonder if you could make a comment on where you see that. I've made the same comment at the public safety committee. We start things and we should finish them. I wonder if you could comment on the sex offender registry and where it is in your order of priorities.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

You probably raised it at the public safety committee because it's a public safety issue. If you're asking in general, of course a sex offender registry can be useful to police and police forces. We've come a long way in this country in the last 20 years in terms of getting the message out and assisting people on that.

I gave you the one example of cooperation that is now taking place between various countries. I was at a conference two years ago, and the Russian delegate pointed out that they had publicized some information with respect to a potential sex offender and Canada was one of the few countries that wanted to get further information.

I know my colleague the public safety minister takes this very seriously. This is the direction we have to go. We need greater cooperation inside and outside of Canada to deal with this.

If you go back 16 to 20 years ago in this country when we looked at child pornography, the traditional view was an abuse that took place to a child, with somebody selling it to somebody else. We very quickly found out in the late 1980s and early 1990s that there was no money being transferred, which was one of the indicia of the crime. Many times these things were produced offshore and outside of Canada.

To try to catch up with what was happening in this area necessitated changes to the Criminal Code that have made it a crime to possess child pornography. Never mind whether there was any money being transacted, and never mind whether it was made inside or outside of Canada; that's irrelevant. Somewhere there were children being abused, and we had to take steps on that.

I think we've come a long way, but we have to continue to make progress in this area.

Thank you for your comments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

You have one and a half minutes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Mr. Minister, I was going to give an introduction to this particular issue, but I'd like to talk quickly on impaired driving. I believe there was recently a case out of Red Deer in which there was a challenge to prevent individuals from using the two-beer defence. Of course, there was a decision. I'm wondering what your thoughts are, if not on that particular case, then on some of the initiatives regarding impaired driving and driving under the influence of drugs.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I think we've made considerable progress in that area by specifically enacting provisions within the Criminal Code that address the whole question of drug-impaired driving. If you're a victim of an impaired driver, it's of little comfort to you to know that the person was impaired by drugs as opposed to alcohol. Either way, you have become a victim of that individual's irresponsible behaviour. So I think it was time to bring forward those changes.

With respect to your reference to the two-beer defence, again, we're very careful in the drafting of these to see that they comply with the Charter of Rights and the Canadian Bill of Rights. That is the responsibility of the Minister of Justice. We're satisfied that the Tackling Violent Crime Act is constitutional, and certainly it addresses a concern that many Canadians have. Again, I'm pleased that we have made progress in this area in my lifetime with respect to people's attitudes towards impaired driving. It's everybody's hope that those improvements will continue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you, Mr. Minister. I just wanted to let you know that I am cognizant of the fact that you have another engagement to go to, so we'll have you out of here by five o'clock.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We move now to Mr. McGuinty.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, thank you for joining us.

I'd like to ask you a few questions, if I could, about Omar Khadr. Mr. Minister, is Omar Khadr the only Canadian citizen left in Guantanamo Bay?