Justice Committee on April 15th, 2010

[Yvan Poulin]

I agree, and in Colisée, just to give you an example, we didn't define as relevant all the 1.2 million calls that were intercepted by the police. We established a procedure so that we disclosed 8,000 conversations we chose in the evidence that the crown wanted to put before the jury or the trial of fact. We disclosed the transcripts of those, and then we shifted the burden to the defence and said to them, “If you want any other calls that were intercepted in the investigation, ask us and we will give you the logs of those calls”--not the calls of everybody, because there are expectations regarding privacy issues that come into play, because one accused is not allowed to have the call to the doctor of the other accused. So there are big expectations regarding privacy issues that come into play, but that is the procedure we applied in Colisée to meet the test that was defined by Stinchcombe.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We're going to do a very quick round of two minutes for Liberals, for the Bloc, and for the government, and then we're going to have to move to Justice LeSage.

Ms. Mendes, you have two minutes.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to everyone for your presence.

Very quickly, I would like to ask you a question regarding the entities that report to you. With regard to the list you have provided us here, in other words the definition of the entities that report to you, do you believe that others could be added, for example Internet service providers? There is the example of online casinos. Should these types of entities have to report to you? That is my question. Let us try to deal with this quickly.

[Hélène Goulet]

Very well, thank you.

Chantal.

[Chantal Jalbert]

Casinos are presently covered by our law, and that includes online casinos. Therefore, if they fall under the law and hold a provincial licence to operate legally in Canada, they are covered.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

And what about those that are illegal?

[Chantal Jalbert]

Those that are illegal are obviously not covered.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Do you believe that there are other entities that should be required to report to you?

[Chantal Jalbert]

We have at present a long list of entities. We certainly have the banks, the casinos, money service businesses, credit unions, real estate agents. We have a very complete list. Therefore, for now, we consider that the list is working quite well. It supplies us with 24 million reports and when applicable, we regularly review the law with the Department of Finance. It is in that context that we could envisage encompassing other sectors.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Last week, we heard a forensic accountant who talked of the difficulty in identifying the owners of certain numbered companies and how, when the time comes to take legal action against them, it is sometimes very difficult to track down the true owner of the company. Would you have any suggestions as to a way to improve the identification requirements on the part of company owners?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

This will require a very short answer.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

That's it. Yes.

[Hélène Goulet]

That would fall under Industry Canada's Canada Corporations Act, for example, which sets out what must be made public. When we have this information, much of it can be disclosed to the police.

[Yvan Poulin]

When dealing with legal action against organized crime, one must recognize that fake identities or front men are common place in this milieu. It is therefore very difficult to link individuals to goods that you attempt to confiscate. Several years ago, it was the major problem and I would say that the problem has remained unchanged. No matter to what extent the burden has been reduced or in some cases transferred to the accused, you still must establish a link between the asset and the individual in order to be able to confiscate it. That is a problem we face.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Mr. Lemay, you have two minutes.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Forgive me for having so often left the room. Indeed, what you are telling us is extraordinarily interesting.

Contrary to my colleague, I am very familiar with Stinchcombe. I even lived with it for 15 years. I can therefore tell you that in criminal law, it is true that it created a lot of work, but it was very well done.

In the beginning of an investigation, do you know that you will have to table such and such a document? I heard say that you prepare yourselves at the very outset.

[Yvan Poulin]

Absolutely. Now, this practice is recommended in the guidelines of the Public Prosecution Service of Canada, namely that the prosecutors commit to this at the very start. In some cases, at the beginning of an investigation, we think that we will go in one direction and we realize in the end that the direction chosen was a very different one.

Therefore, both at the beginning and during the process one must know how to adapt and work hand in hand with the police in the management of the disclosure of evidence that will go on for the entire duration of the process.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

It is with great interest that I read FINTRAC's 2009 report, which I found very enlightening.

Do diamonds, emeralds, rubies and all of this very valuable merchandise fall under your jurisdiction?

[Chantal Jalbert]

There are 7,000 products that are covered. We call these people precious metals or precious stone dealers or jewellers.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

For example, in Belgium, we know that there is a tremendous diamond trade. Do you for example have an agreement with Belgium, or with its police forces? How does that work? For example, an individual could go to Belgium and come back with a little bag of diamonds.

[Chantal Jalbert]

I will answer the first part, concerning compliance. Let us take the case of a jeweller who should be providing us with a report because he, for example, executed a transaction worth more than $10,000 or that could be linked to a suspicious operation. In such a case, the report would be reviewed by my colleague responsible for analysis, and this could entail disclosure, but this work is done in Canada. Unless police services or our international colleagues make a request. With this condition, our memorandums of understanding will apply.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Merci.

We'll move on to Monsieur Petit. Make sure your question is short; otherwise you might not get an answer. Two minutes.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

I have a question for Ms. Goulet.

We talk about white collar criminals and all of the people who have committed fraud throughout Canada. We had great examples of this in Quebec, in Alberta and elsewhere. A lot of transactions are done through public and sometimes even government organizations.

Do you receive, process or analyze documents that might originate from government institutions where large sums of money are managed? For example, there is the Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec, Teachers' and all of the organizations where transfers of funds are carried out. In fact, we have seen organized crime infiltrate some of these areas. Do you receive or analyze documents of this nature?

[Denis Meunier]

If I am not mistaken, these public or parapublic organizations are excluded from the law as reporting entities. They are nevertheless free to send reports to us if they so wish.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You receive no information from them?