Justice Committee on March 20th, 2013

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Again, we were all bound by budgetary constraints, across the board. I'm pleased that we've made permanent the funding of $141 million that is being transferred to the provinces for youth services funding programs. That's the largest transfer, quite frankly, from the Department of Justice.

That being said, as you are probably aware, we have made a number of commitments at the federal level to directly get involved with victims funding, starting with the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime. There are millions of dollars going into the guns, gangs and drugs component of the youth justice fund. There is the drug treatment component of the youth justice fund, the intensive rehabilitation, custody, and supervision program. All of these are federal initiatives that go toward supporting victims of crime.

I had the opportunity in question period today to mention that there are record levels of money being transferred to the provinces. The provinces aren't getting any less money. Indeed, over the life of this government it's increased approximately 50%, up more than $20 billion. Again, we're transferring more money every year to the provinces, and it goes to those areas of responsibility that are provincial. One of them, the administration of justice, for the most part is paid for by the provinces.

I am among those who are quite pleased to see each year this increased commitment and this increased transfer to the provinces.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I have one short question, Minister, given the time available.

Why do the 2013-14 estimates provide $2.9 million for the aboriginal justice strategy fund, while the previous estimates, including supplementary estimates and the actual expenditures for 2011-12, total about $12 million?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

The budgetary process has been such that some of these come through supplementary estimates. I've indicated to this committee that there are many positive aspects with respect to the aboriginal justice strategy. We're about 24 hours away from the budget, so we'll have a look in the budget.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Mr. Cotler,

Our next questioner is Mr. Albas from the Conservative Party.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm very happy to be here with you today, Minister, because I think sometimes we forget how much has been done in making sure that we have a system that stands behind both victims and law-abiding Canadians. I think it's good for us sometimes to stop and take a look at what's been done, but as you noted in your opening statement, Minister, there still is a lot of work that needs to be carried out.

Specific to that, in my riding of Okanagan—Coquihalla, in the 1990s and 2000s there were some very high-profile cases that alarmed a lot of people in my riding. When the Prime Minister and you were in Burnaby announcing that there had been some legislation tabled regarding the not criminally responsible, certainly I received a lot of input from people in my riding, and very supportive feedback.

That being said, Minister, I think just as Mr. Wilks mentioned about the coming into force of the Citizen’s Arrest and Self-defence Act, sometimes it's good for us to review what things have been done and what things are going to be worked on.

On February 8, Minister, you introduced Bill C-54, the not criminally responsible reform act. The introduction of this legislation is part of our government's plan for safe streets and communities, which is one of the four priorities the Prime Minister has identified.

How will this legislation ensure that not criminally responsible accused people who are found too dangerous to release are no longer a threat to their victims or to Canadian communities? Minister, I'd like your analysis on that, please, if you wouldn't mind.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I was very pleased to introduce that bill. As you pointed out, I was pleased to join with the Prime Minister in meeting with a number of victims, as you remember, of course, as you yourself were there that day.

I think this brings forward some needed changes to the whole area. We made it very clear that we're coming up with, among other things, a high-risk category that will be determined by the courts. We're talking about a relatively small number of violent individuals, or individuals who have been involved with very violent activities. Again, this in no way compromises their rights or their abilities to get treatment for what they suffer from, but that being said, we want to make sure that people maintain confidence in the system and that we properly take victims into consideration.

With that legislation, one of the components that you will see is that we'll do a better job of informing victims as to what's happening, in giving the board the ability to set parameters, when the time comes, if and when an individual is released, so that the victims are better able to know what's happening and better able to cope with the situation.

If you have a look at the legislation we have brought forward, this has been a consistent theme of what we've done, taking into consideration who the victims are, how good a job we're doing representing their interests. You'll remember the bill on white-collar crime. We made it a little more user friendly in terms of victims making an application for restitution. This was in no way an attempt to take over provincial jurisdiction with respect to lawsuits that can arise from transactions that have gone very wrong in this area. We're not saying that. We're saying that victims need one more way to access the system and try to get some justice.

What we're doing in the not criminally responsible reform act with respect to victims, what we do in the various pieces of legislation that we have brought forward, is consistent with that theme, to make sure that victims and their concerns are at the forefront of our criminal justice system, or in the system of the not criminally responsible, to make sure that their interests are looked after. We owe that to them. Again, those are the individuals I meet with on a regular basis across this country. They're consistent in the sense that they like the direction we are going in, and they encourage our continuing along this route. This is one more step in that direction.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Minister, earlier my colleague, Mr. Wilks, mentioned the Citizen's Arrest and Self-defence Act. In his prior life as an RCMP officer, obviously he had to engage with a variety of situations. I was a martial arts instructor for a number of years.

In your earlier comments you talked about how important it is that people have a good understanding of what the law is and about making things more user friendly. I certainly don't encourage anyone to take any vigilante kind of action or put themselves at risk, but one of the things I found in my experience was.... I would talk to police officers, judges, etc., and ask them what reasonable self-defence is. I would just point out that giving people workable certainty as to what the law is and how they can protect themselves is empowering and helpful.

Mr. Chair, you've been helpful by giving me the time to finish talking, so I want to thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Mr. Albas.

A short answer, Minister.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Again, you make an excellent point. You don't want to victimize these people again. People who have been threatened, or if they themselves or their families or property have been attacked, don't want to be victimized again by unnecessarily having to deal with the judicial system.

I remember talking to one police officer who said that area was so complicated. He said to let the courts figure it out. That's not a solution. The law has to be clear so that individuals know exactly what it is they can or can't do. By clarifying the law, we're all better off. Again it goes to what we are talking about and the concern of some of my colleagues about making sure that the criminal system works, and that it works efficiently. That is another excellent example of that. I thank you for raising it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Minister.

Our next questioner is Mr. Marston from the New Democratic Party.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome again to the minister and the officials. It's good to see you back before us.

Minister, in your remarks you were clear that the government has been very committed to an aggressive justice agenda, and from this side of the House we don't disagree with you on that. In fact, if you take into consideration the bill you were just talking about, it started from the NDP with the Lucky Moose story where the member for Trinity—Spadina, Olivia Chow, put it before the House. So we're on the same page in some areas. In some other areas, of course we'll have philosophical differences.

One of the things that comes to mind is we're living in a stagnant economy right now. I'm not going to point fingers. I'm not going to seek to blame, but it's a reality, so the question that comes to mind that follows on what Madame Boivin was talking about is it looks like we're facing a kind of across-the-board adjustment or cuts. When you look at where you believe things are situated, are there areas you would be giving extra consideration to if you had the opportunity?

What I'm really leading up to is if you've had an effective justice agenda where you put a number of folks behind bars, then we have to have an agenda for rehabilitation to ensure that when they come out they will go back into society as productive members.

I am just curious about whether we can expect that to become a priority one day soon.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

First of all, I'm very encouraged that the NDP is coming on side and supporting our justice agenda. This is wonderful news.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I did point out we have some philosophical differences—

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I guess I got too excited on that.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

—but an effective justice system is something we need.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

That being said, I've very much appreciated some of the areas into which we have moved and in which we continue to assist.

I mentioned the child advocacy centres. It wasn't just a coincidence that I put that in. On my travels across this country I heard about this concept and a description of what these child advocacy centres do. They're one-stop places in a child friendly atmosphere where there are all the services for a child who has been sexually exploited. The services come to the child as opposed to the child going everywhere else.

I may have indicated to you, and I certainly have to others, that I remember hearing about this in Edmonton. I thought it was an excellent idea. I was pleased to hear that one opened in St. Catharines, which is next door to my constituency. I remember visiting it and frankly it was just after I'd heard about the one in Edmonton. When I asked how they were financing it and how they did it, they told me they were getting funding from police services and some of the municipalities and that there were charitable donations, but that there was no funding at the federal or provincial levels.

So I was very pleased, and I have said to my colleague Mr. Flaherty how pleased I am, that in two of his recent budgets he's included funding for child advocacy centres. Again, these are steps forward. Somebody could make the argument that these are generally provincial services that are provided, but I'm pleased that the federal government has done that.

I indicated the different funds to you as well and said that we have been supportive of these. I did mention the national anti-drug strategy, for instance. All of these are meant to get the message out to people to not get involved with this kind of activity and that if they do get involved with it, we want to help.

If the Minister of Public Safety were here, he would indicate to you that tens of millions of dollars go towards assisting individuals with mental health issues in the federal penitentiary system. I'm supportive of that, because some day those individuals will be released, so you want them to get the treatment and the help they need. I know that's a priority for my colleague, the Minister of Public Safety, and certainly among the issues within my purview, these are a priority as well.

Thank you for the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Mr. Marston.

Thank you for the answer, Minister.

Our next questioner is Mr. Calkins from the Conservative Party.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here today. It's much appreciated.

I too was getting a little excited when I heard my colleagues across the way indicating their forthcoming support for all of our legislative agenda when it comes to criminal justice.

I do want to remind Mr. Marston and others that it's not just about the incident that happened in Trinity—Spadina in Toronto. These kinds of issues, when it comes to self-defence and to protecting one's property, have happened all across the country. You may recall that I have spoken to you about incidents that happened in my constituency when a citizen was awakened in the middle of the night and went out to defend his property and ended up being charged and had higher penalties than the three people who came onto his property and attempted to deprive him of his property. He used some force to try to prevent that and to secure his property again and initially ended up facing higher penalties. I'm glad that it was appealed and some common sense was applied and a semblance of justice was brought back. I want to thank you on behalf of that family and all of the constituents who raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for his legal defence fund in order to bring a sense of justice and to make it clearer for the police and the courts to better interpret what self-defence and the defence of one's property actually are. It's absolutely wonderful. Thank you for your leadership on that.

You mentioned you heard of some issues in Edmonton and so on. One of the things I like about our government is how proactive we are at engaging people, whether in budget consultations or other types of round tables.

I had a number of round tables in my riding dealing with justice issues. Up in Lindale and in remote rural areas we have a lot of cases of breaking and entering. Folks are very frustrated with the years of neglect by our justice system in actually addressing some of the serious consequences of property crime and so on. We heard loud and clear from there that a lot of crimes are even going unreported simply because they're so frustrated with the weak penalties that people used to get traditionally and the revolving door and so on.

I wonder what other things, notwithstanding the agenda you've laid out for us with your three initiatives, you have been hearing at the round tables you've conducted throughout Canada as our Minister of Justice.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Again, these have been very helpful to me, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Calkins, for your interest in this area. It's much appreciated. I know how supportive you are of the measures that we have taken.

You hear different perspectives from different parts of the country. Sometimes you hear about different crimes, and you hear less about it in some other parts of the country. What is consistent, though, are the meetings I have and the input I get from victims in this country. I'll give you a good example of that.

I heard from many victims across this country about what it was like when the individual who murdered a member of their family came up for the possibility of early parole at 15 years.

I remember introducing the legislation in Parliament. At the scrums that sometimes take place here, I was asked a legitimate question, I guess: do you think that by getting rid of the possibility of early parole people will stop committing first degree murder? I said, “That's not what I'm saying with respect to the introduction of the legislation; it's the hope of everybody that nobody would commit first degree murder, but I do know this for sure: we will be reducing victimization in this country.” I have been told at these round tables by victims that when that 15-year period rolls around, they're victimized again. They're victimized again in wondering and worrying whether the individual is going to be back on the street.

You're familiar with that section that is now gone, thankfully, from the Criminal Code. It didn't stop there: it was at 17 years, 19 years, 21 years, 23 years. For these people, they tell me, it never ended. It just was on and on. That came out of those discussions with them. I was completely confident, as I am to this day, that by getting rid of that, we reduced the victimization in this country. Those are the people that I worry about. Those are the people that you worry about, I know, the people who have been victimized and have found themselves in this position. You are supportive of those measures that reduce the possibility of further victimization.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

You have one minute, Mr. Calkins.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Wetaskiwin, AB]

I appreciate that, Minister, and I appreciate your strong leadership on this. The message that I have is very sellable back home in my constituency and in my home province of Alberta, of course, when it comes to these particular matters. You're absolutely right, and I would like to follow up with you on that.

Can we expect anything further? You've highlighted that you want to bring forward a victims' bill of rights. I believe you've been asked to elaborate a little on this already. Back home in my riding, and in Alberta, as I've said, folks are really happy about the fact that our justice system is now focusing also on the needs of the victim and the right to protect the victim and that those who are most vulnerable in our society are getting the attention they finally deserve. Is there anything you can tell the committee and Canadians about what they can expect from the government's forthcoming agenda on this?

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

A short answer, Minister, please.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I've indicated that we're going to move forward in the area of better protecting children from those individuals who would sexually exploit them and those individuals who would attack them. I've indicated that we are going to move forward in that direction.

As you indicated, putting together a victims' bill of rights, compiling those areas that are there to protect victims, bringing them together and clarifying those areas in federal legislation I think will be a big help, just as when we put the form into the Criminal Code with respect to victims who have suffered at the hands of white-collar crime, and who have had their money taken away from them. We made it easier for them to find out where to go. This is consistent with what we have been saying.

A victims' bill of rights is consistent with that and makes it easier for the victims to find out what it is they can do, or what's available to them. That's the thinking and the philosophy behind this, Mr. Chairman, and that's the direction we're going in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Minister.

Our next questioner is Mr. Mai from the NDP.