National Defence Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2006

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Do you mean Pakistan or Afghanistan?

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I'm sorry. Pakistan.

So we're going to have a year or two years with that new government, assuming they'll hold those elections before February 2009.

Have you done any planning yet? Do you know any of the players, potential players? Do you see this as maybe an opportunity to plan for some of that change in advance, so we can take advantage of an opportunity perhaps to address the border situation in some more productive way?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Just as we don't, obviously, get involved in elections--

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

No, but we know who's there.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

--like the recent elections in the United States, although we've been watching them very closely.... I must say that meeting the current Prime Minister, Aziz, and getting his read on what was happening in the country, particularly around the border, was extremely helpful. I must say I was very impressed with his knowledge, his commitment, and his passion for those issues, and his forthrightness in recognizing that they were going to do more and were prepared to do more. But his openness to assistance from Canada and NATO allies in addressing what they know and recognize is clearly a soft underbelly when it comes to the effort to deal with insurgents and to deal with the Taliban more directly....

I wouldn't put too close an analogy on this, but the unfortunate thing is it's not all Pashtuns who are Taliban, just as it's not all Tamils who are Tamil Tigers. There's a clear division between peace-loving people in Pakistan and those who are partaking of the Taliban insurgency. So the political players inside that country are all intimately aware of the fact that there has to be more done. They are looking for greater assistance in techniques and technologies that can be employed at the border. I know that the offer that was extended in Halifax to the Prime Minister was quickly embraced, and I hope to follow up on that with him quickly, and perhaps at that time also receive further information--to get back to Ms. Black's question--about what they're doing and what progress has been made.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you very much.

We're very close to our time, Mr. Bouchard, so just a short one.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for joining us, Minister.

Many humanitarian organizations have appeared before us to talk about the urgency of food relief. They have told us that many heads of family did not have the financial means necessary to support their children and family.

Do you share this opinion? What can you tell us concerning the testimonies we’ve heard?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Bouchard.

Clearly poverty is one of the root causes of terrorism. And in warring regions, such as Afghanistan and Pakistan, there are a lot of people who live in deplorable conditions.

These are the fundamental challenges, to be able to get aid to those people and to give them an alternative to turning to the Taliban organization for a life and livelihood that leads them towards violence.

So yes, I share the concern. I share the vision of all of the participant countries who want to do more but in practical terms are struggling with this same issue that we're talking about here--namely, how do we in practical ways deliver that aid, provide that alternative into these extremely remote and rugged areas of the country, and engage them in political and diplomatic terms to convince them that this is the alternative?

So there's not only transcending the language and cultural barrier; there's also clearly the very real physical limitation in terms of access to parts of the region. But awareness efforts are continuing, and the Pakistani government is open to participation.

Just to go back for a moment to Mr. Hawn's question, the fact that we have in Pakistan a government that is committed to democracy, that has obviously indicated that they're going to have free and democratic elections, is something we can never forget or lose sight of. That country is a stable country in comparison to Afghanistan. It's not a perfect democracy--no country is--but they are committed to that principle.

I think it's very easy to point out everything that's wrong, and all of the huge, enormous challenges that lie before us, but let's be thankful for some of the fundamentals that do exist. We now have a government in Afghanistan that wants us and needs us there. Similarly, Pakistan is committed to fair and free elections, committed to an openness to the assistance and the efforts that we, along with others, are prepared to provide.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

That brings us to our time. As I say, we have another set of witnesses coming.

Before we suspend, do you have any closing comments at all?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Only to say that I very much commend and appreciate the work you're doing. I look forward to any advice and information to be presented before you. This is a whole of government, and a whole of government, of course, includes a whole of opposition. We want to benefit to the greatest degree possible and then move forward with any ideas and any suggestions and any information that can be provided by your committee. So I thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, sir.

We'll suspend for a few minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you very much, committee, for coming back to order so quickly.

I would like to welcome from DND today, Vice-Admiral Drew Robertson, Chief of the Maritime Staff, and General Lucas, Chief of the Air Staff.

Gentlemen, welcome.

I apologize for the confusion in timing. I understand that the bells ring at 5:55, and very shortly after they start ringing, we'll have to stop with you. As usual, we'll give time to one or both of you to make your presentations, and then we'll go into a round of questions.

The floor is yours.

[LGen J. S. Lucas, Chief of the Air Staff, Department of National Defence]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

It falls to me, as the Chief of the Air Staff, to go first, and I'll be followed by Admiral Robertson.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you.

[LGen J. S. Lucas]

Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, thank you for your clear demonstration of interest in the air force's involvement in supporting Canadian Forces operations in Afghanistan and for inviting me here to speak with you today about our significant contribution in the campaign against terrorism and in helping to build a new democracy in the region.

Thank you for your clear demonstration of interest in the Air Force’s involvement in supporting Canadian Forces operations in Afghanistan, and for inviting me here to speak with you today about our significant contribution in the campaign against terrorism and in helping to build a new democracy in this region.

As I begin, I would like to first acknowledge the tremendous job that our army is doing in Afghanistan. While members of all elements of the Canadian Forces are contributing in Afghanistan, it is truly the army that is carrying the greatest part of the load in carrying out this operation.

Today I'd like to take this opportunity to focus on three elements of our support to the operation. First is the lifeline that the air force is providing to Canadians serving in Afghanistan. Second are the in-theatre tactical operations involving combat resupply and the operation of unmanned aerial vehicles for intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance. Finally are other significant contributions that individual air force personnel are making in support of NATO, the Government of Afghanistan, and its integrated members of Joint Task Force Afghanistan.

At home, as you are aware, the Air Force has focused its efforts on Canada’s top defence priority: the no-fail mission of protecting Canada first.

Whether guarding our vast skies, patrolling the longest coastline in the world, providing immediate response to Canadians in distress through our search and rescue network, or working with other government departments, being prepared to respond to threats to Canadians is job number one for the Canadian Forces and the air force.

In addition, the air force continues to be engaged in many other operations around the world, including the current Canadian Forces operation in Afghanistan. There, we are working alongside the army in an effort to create a safe and secure environment for the growth of democracy in Afghanistan.

Let me begin with my first point: the lifeline the air force provides to Joint Task Force Afghanistan.

Canada’s Air Force has been engaged in the campaign against terrorism, continuously supporting Canadian Forces operations in Afghanistan and this region, since 2002.

Today, strategic airlift bridges the considerable distance between Canada and Southwest Asia, halfway around the world.

Together with our tactical inter-theatre airlift, between our staging area at Camp Mirage and Kandahar, the air force provides a lifeline to the members of the Canadian Forces operating in Afghanistan. This air bridge requires absolute dedication to ensure it operates effectively, because, as has been often stated by General Hillier, the very success of the mission in Afghanistan depends on it.

Over the past 12 months, over 550 chalks of strategic airlift, representing the movement of thousands of people and tonnes of materiel, have supported our joint task force in Afghanistan.

Our fleet of five CC-150 Polaris Airbus aircraft has been used largely for personnel transport and for smaller pallet-sized cargo. The majority, almost 75% of the strategic airlift, however, has been accomplished through contracted airlift, including C-17 chalks provided by the United States Air Force.

The materiel and personnel are first flown into Camp Mirage, the primary Canadian base of operations in the theatre. Camp Mirage is also used to administer personnel departing and returning from Afghanistan during periods of home leave travel assistance or rest and recreation.

Camp Mirage is commanded by a Canadian Air Force lieutenant-colonel and is operated almost exclusively by air force personnel. Thousands of air force personnel have quietly served in Camp Mirage since it was first established in 2002.

Currently, the newly formed 17 Mission Support Squadron from 17 Wing Winnipeg, Manitoba, is providing the bulk of the support personnel serving at Camp Mirage. The creation of mission support squadrons is part of the continuing transformation of the air force into a more effects-based expeditionary air force.

14 Mission Support Squadron from 14 Wing Greenwood, Nova Scotia, is currently training for their deployment into Camp Mirage in the near future.

Given the current air threat and risk assessments in theatre, the CC-130 Hercules remains the sole platform for moving personnel into Afghanistan from our staging base at Camp Mirage. The Hercules, about one-third to one-quarter the size of the strategic lift aircraft, is the workhorse of our air mobility fleet. Over the past 12 months, they have made over 500 flights into Afghanistan.

This brings me to my second point, the air force's in-theatre tactical operations.

Air and ground crew are conducting flying operations with the CC-130 Hercules throughout Afghanistan in direct support of Canadian Forces operations in that country. Whether transporting personnel from Kandahar to Kabul or parachuting up to 14,500 kilos of supplies per flight to deployed soldiers throughout the country, they are making a tremendous difference.

They have become a key enabler to commanders by providing supplies to soldiers throughout portions of Afghanistan that are not supported by a good road network, or in areas in which the Taliban are disrupting the road network.

In addition to supporting Canadian soldiers, they have been instrumental in delivering personnel and supplies for other nations, including the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, and the United States. They are being acknowledged by other nations for their accuracy and effectiveness, particularly when it comes to air-dropping supplies into dangerous and hostile environments.

The air force also has responsibility for generation and provision of unmanned aerial vehicle or UAV capability for Joint Task Force Afghanistan. Air force and army personnel work together in an integrated tactical UAV unit, providing invaluable intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance support to commanders in the field. That information is proving to be fundamental to achieving tactical success for the soldiers on the ground, providing them with greater situational awareness that contributes directly to reducing risk while they carry out the missions.

Lastly, I would like to bring to your attention other significant contributions being made by individual air force personnel in Afghanistan.

Men and women of the air force are also actively engaged in key positions within NATO's ISAF headquarters in Kabul. In fact, my former deputy, a Canadian Air Force general, Major-General Angus Watt, is the deputy commander of ISAF and takes over responsibility for running ISAF's missions during the commander's absences from theatre.

Other Canadian Air Force personnel, including members of my headquarters, have been instrumental in Kabul by helping the Afghan government as members of the Canadian Strategic Advisory Team.

This team was established under the direction of General Hillier, at the request of Afghan President Karzai, to bring to the Government of Afghanistan two main areas of expertise: strategic planning and capacity building. The 17-member team works directly within the central Government of Afghanistan and is currently headed by an air force officer, Colonel Don Dixon.

In addition, airfield engineers and other skilled Air Force personnel are integrated into a variety of units, filling critical roles in the Canadian areas of operations in and around Kandahar.

My role in this as Commander of Air Command and Chief of the Air Staff is to generate combat-ready air forces for deployment and employment. This involves the training of personnel and ensuring they have the right equipment to do the jobs asked of them. This is why we are working so hard at acquiring a fleet of four C-17s for strategic airlift and replacing the tactical air fleet of aging Hercules with more modern aircraft.

In addition to providing combat-ready forces for current operations, we're always conducting and reviewing contingency plans in order that the air force remains prepared to further contribute, if and when the need arises.

In conclusion, I'd like to reinforce that without the air bridge, the lifeline from our bases in Canada to Camp Mirage and onward into Kandahar and Kabul, the mission could not succeed. The invaluable missions being performed by the men and women at the air force in theatre are integral to the conduct of Canadian Forces operations in Afghanistan. I can assure you that you can be very proud of what they're doing on behalf of this country and all Canadians under dangerous and difficult conditions. I will be reinforcing that message when I visit our troops in a couple of weeks.

Mr. Chairman, messieurs, mesdames, membres du comité, I would be happy to answer any questions you may have following remarks by my colleague, the Chief of Maritime Staff, Vice-Admiral Drew Robertson.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you very much.

Vice-Admiral.

[VAdm Drew Robertson, Chief of the Maritime Staff, Department of National Defence]

Mr. Chairman, committee members, thanks for providing the two of us with the opportunity to speak to you today.

I intend to focus my comments in three areas.

First I will talk about what our Navy is doing to support the Canadian Forces’ operations in Afghanistan; second about what your Navy is doing to meet Canada’s obligations regarding maritime defence and security; and third about the state of readiness of Canada’s maritime forces.

Let me begin with Afghanistan. Our men and women in Afghanistan certainly fill me with pride and humility on a daily basis. I have pride in their skills regardless of their occupation, certainly pride in the effectiveness of our army in a highly complex and continually evolving situation with a tenacious adversary, and humility in the face of selfless acts of courage, and also in their determination to see the mission through.

Mr. Chair, our experience in Afghanistan shows how complex modern operations have become and have forced us to adopt new ways of thinking so that we can get the most out of our Canadian Forces’ capabilities.

I can assure you that your navy has responded where it could, and it will continue to do so. Thus, we've seen naval officers, both regular and reserve, contribute to the strategic advisory team that General Lucas just spoke of. We seconded staff to the U.S.-led Combined Forces Command-Afghanistan to assist in the transition between American forces and NATO forces that occurred earlier this year. We've deployed a wide variety of personnel--military policemen, doctors, cargo movement specialists, drivers, supply techs, and so on--into the country, and we've sent others to Wainwright to contribute to the training that's ongoing there. We've dispatched our specially skilled naval clearance divers to the critical and highly dangerous function of defeating improvised explosive devices in theatre because they have, as I said, special skills.

Mr. Chairman, our people in Afghanistan deserve that we consider novel technical means of providing for their protection. Accordingly, for some time, naval technical and operational experts have been assisting the Chief of the Land Staff to determine the feasibility of deploying what's called the Phalanx close-in weapons system, or CIWS, you would have heard about. It's a devastatingly accurate Gatling gun, and it's our destroyers' and our frigates' essential last defence against anti-ship missiles, which the CIWS destroys in the very last seconds before impact. The question is whether we can turn a few of them to the purpose of defending selected installations in theatre from inbound mortar or rocket fire. While it remains to be determined whether or not CIWS can be usefully employed in such a role, it signals the naval and land staffs' collective resolve to meet such challenges in Afghanistan together.

Of course, Mr. Chairman, the campaign against terrorism is also waged more broadly, and our navy is playing a role in those efforts, as it has since October 2001 when Canada dispatched a naval task group and maritime aircraft to the Arabian Sea, where we defended the U.S. Navy and U.S. Marine Corps force that seized Kandahar from the Taliban.

Beyond the campaign against terrorism, the country is dealing with other problems of defence and security, but I know that your committee is quite aware of this, especially in the context of recent events, such as those in Lebanon and Iran, not to mention the Korean Peninsula.

As sailors, we understand that the free use of the seas, on which our economic prosperity depends, is also honorable. Many would like to take advantage of it to cause us great harm.

Accordingly, our first priority is to defend the nation. That's why, as part of the CF's ongoing transformation, the navy has led in standing up a Joint Task Force Atlantic and Pacific to support Canada Command, and they're making sure that the right maritime forces can be positioned in the right place at the right time to uphold our sovereignty.

Mr. Chairman, our domestic security begins off other countries' shores. As but one example, let me cite the work of HMCS Fredericton, deployed for nearly two months, back in the spring, as far as the west coast of Africa. She was deployed in a covert counter-drug operation to break up a drug ring that operates in the east end of Montreal. The successful conclusion of the operation led to the interception of 23 tonnes of cargo worth close to $0.25 billion. This, as I said, occurred in the Gulf of Guinea, a long way from our waters.

This wouldn't have been attempted by the RCMP without the assurance provided by Fredericton's ability to operate unseen, as well as her ability to apply overwhelming force at a moment's notice, had that been needed by the RCMP to back up them up. Although these actions occurred at a great distance from our shores, the actions that were taken contributed to the security of Canadians directly, while also interdicting a drug-smuggling chain that likely began in the poppy fields of Afghanistan.

Mr. Chairman, the fact that domestic international maritime security can be provided at great distance from Canada is also why HMCS Ottawa is deployed to the Arabian Sea as part of a coalition force. Ottawa is the 20th ship to be deployed to the region since 9/11, initially under Operation Apollo; we've now changed the name to Operation Altair. She's there to underscore Canada's enduring interests in the region; to interdict those who would use the seas for unlawful purposes, including terrorists; to further Canada's objectives in preventing the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction; to reassure regional friends and security partners; to deter those who would act against our interests; and to prepare for eventual follow-on operations, should deterrence fail.

The importance of maritime security operations in distant waters is why HMCS Iroquois is serving in the Mediterranean tonight as flagship of NATO's premier rapid response maritime group, currently engaged in counterterrorism and counter-proliferation operations under the alliance's Operation Active Endeavour. For the last nine months that group has been commanded by a Canadian, Commodore Denis Rouleau, a testament to the fact that Canada is recognized by navies large and small for its capacity to exercise international leadership at sea.

That's also why our west coast task group has just completed working with an American battle group as the latter prepares for major operational deployment in the coming months. That's why, off North Carolina over the weekend, the CF completed a tactical trial to examine a concept of operations for a possible future Canadian sea-based expeditionary capability. It's why that experiment also involved a Canadian and an American naval task group under Canadian leadership, whose ships worked to keep to keep the force safe from the types of threats Canada expects to encounter in the future's contestable littoral waters around the world, an environment which the recent successful missile attack by Hezbollah against the Israeli frigate back in July served to illustrate with dramatic and deadly effect.

In total last week, we had over 2,600 sailors at sea in the Pacific, the Atlantic, the Mediterranean, and the Arabian Sea. I think that's a measure of our ability to make an ongoing contribution to international maritime security and provide credible options for potential contingencies worldwide, including as an integral part of joint CF operations in the littoral, if needed.

Let me turn very briefly to readiness. That we've accomplished so much over the last few years is a tribute to our successors in husbanding and marshalling resources through a tiered readiness approach; however, I think we're probably reaching the limit of what's achievable. Some of that work may be undone if we cannot address readiness challenges that face all of us today, and, in the case of the navy, they will be aggravated during fleet modernization and renewal.

The government's support for the joint support ship program marks a significant and highly important turning point towards a recapitalized fleet for Canada. That project is expected to enter a new phase shortly; two teams will complete funded proposals to design and build the ships, and this, I have to say, is great news for the navy. The challenge that I and my successors want to face will be to improve the readiness of the balance of the fleet so as to maximize return on investment, as represented by our ships and our skilled crews.

In the face of the challenge of keeping the Canadian Forces versatile and fit for combat, we appreciate the support of this committee and of all parliamentarians.

In closing, Mr. Chairman, permit me to reassure the committee that your navy has been making a contribution in Afghanistan and stands ready to provide additional support within its means while continuing to provide for the maritime security of our nation, both at home and working with our allies abroad.

Let me thank you again for the opportunity to appear before the committee. Both of us would be pleased to take your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you very much,

As the time is working out, we're going to have enough for one seven-minute round. So know that going in and make the best use of your time. I'm going to have to be pretty strict, and when the bell rings I'm going to have to stop you.

Mr. McGuire.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses today to the committee to hear how well the three branches of our forces are working together for our country in this particular operation.

Gentlemen, I'm wondering about your personnel numbers. Are you having any trouble keeping up the required numbers in the air force and navy overall, including this operation that you're involved in?

[LGen J. S. Lucas]

From an air force perspective, we are in fact in pretty good shape. We have gone through the last number of years deficient in a couple of specific occupations.

Search and rescue technician is an occupation we're having a hard time filling, but it's one of those that come from within. In other words, to become an SAR Tech, you have to have been a member of the Canadian Forces in some other occupation, and then you make a sideways transfer. SAR Tech is one of our more demanding occupations, so it's not surprising that we're having a hard time filling it.

In general terms, many people continue to show up at the recruiting office looking to become members of the air force, and our process right now is working with them. There are some occupations where we're challenged because of equipment problems, but the good news is that we have ways ahead that are going to address most of those problems in the very near future.

So from a personnel point of view, our greatest challenge is actually having the right people with the right skill sets to be able to conduct the high level of operations and the extensive transformation activities that we're going to in the next while. But we have plans in place to address that.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

And the navy?

[VAdm Drew Robertson]

There's a slightly different situation in the navy. We're attracting the people who are broadly required for the Canadian Forces, but we have particular occupations that represent challenges. For the maritime forces, that's a variety of technical occupations—the same electronics technicians who would be valued in other parts of society.

So it's a competition, and we're going to have to engage in that competition a little more directly. The standard for the Canadian Forces' recruiting method is fine for the broad set of occupations. But in the case of the technicians, we're going to have to engage in some boutique recruiting, where we go and hunt them down and make our case to them as individuals at community colleges. We've been engaged in that for a little while, but we need to do more.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Are you able to offer incentives to attract the people you need?

[VAdm Drew Robertson]

There are incentives available for those who already have certain skills that we wish to have, but not incentives merely in terms of people who want to enter into electronics training in the armed forces.

[LGen J. S. Lucas]

One of the incentives would be the training we offer. A number of people find that very attractive. One of our challenges is that some of the training is so attractive, that shortly after they become qualified, they leave the organization and take the training elsewhere.

We find this particularly in Alberta, close to Fort McMurray, where a lot of industries are feeling the pull from that particular sector.