Evidence of meeting #60 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dog.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
As an Individual
Sir, I purchased Luna from a pet store. It cost around $150 as well. As you said, yes, the vet bills and things add up. It's not cheap to bring the dog to a veterinarian. It's a minimum of $100. It's very challenging at times.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Mark Strahl Conservative Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC
We've heard a lot over the last number of months from General Natynczyk and now General Lawson about the efforts to reduce the stigma of PTSD and mental illness in the military. Certainly I take them at their word at the highest ranks that this is happening, but especially from your comments, Master Corporal, it doesn't appear that is always making its way down the chain of command.
Have you seen improvements in the reduction of stigma? That comment that you can barely take care of yourself was very troubling, if that was coming from someone in authority over you.
4:05 p.m.
MCpl Bill Nachuk
Yes, sir, that actually came from a medical officer. It was my doctor, a military doctor.
I will say, being in 2B of 2 PPCLI, that we are truly a close net of brothers. There has been, on our part, a little bit of betterment on that aspect. We actually start comparing meds among ourselves, but that's us trying to take care of our brother. We're doing it among ourselves.
The stigma still is there. When you have to go to a medical appointment and you have to put your name on a board that everyone can see saying you have to go to mental health appointments, that's drawing more undue attention to yourself.
I was told by two doctors, one in Shilo and one in Gagetown, that if I have a relapse any time later in my career after being diagnosed with PTSD, I am placed on permanent category and on my road out for medical release. That means soldiers will not get help again if they ever have a relapse, and PTSD does not just go away, so now, being told that, I automatically know I could never ask for help again without fear of losing my job.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative James Bezan
Thank you. Your time has expired.
Mr. McKay, you have the last of the seven-minute round.
December 6th, 2012 / 4:05 p.m.
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
Thank you, Chair, and thank you to you both.
This has been.... You guys are pretty gutsy is all I can say. Man.
We're going to have Colonel Jetly speak after you. I have his notes for his appearance here.
It says in the last paragraph:
...canine assisted therapy can have a positive health impact in some patients, in a non-clinical, social way. But at this point, there is not sufficient evidence to justify the inclusion of canine therapy in our spectrum of care.
What would you like to say to Colonel Jetly?
4:05 p.m.
MCpl Bill Nachuk
I have to apologize. When I'm being read something, there are times when it's hard for me to put it back into—
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
Essentially what he's saying is there's no scientific proof that this canine therapy works.
4:05 p.m.
MCpl Bill Nachuk
You know what, sir? I would respectfully say I don't care what the science is behind it: it saved my life. It saved lives of friends of mine in Shilo. I am getting phone calls from a friend of mine who used to suffer very badly from seizures. He got a dog. He's able to get into the malls and carry on with his life.
I'm just a soldier. Science to me is you take it the way you want. I personally know the effects of it. I've seen it first-hand with me, and I've seen it with my friends, so science, in my opinion, is debatable.
4:05 p.m.
As an Individual
Sir, I'd like to add on that. The United States and the United Kingdom both endorse and fund psychiatric service dogs for their soldiers, so the science is there.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
Are either of you aware of any science-based studies being done, i.e., empirical evidence or anything of that nature?
4:10 p.m.
MCpl Bill Nachuk
I'm not sure if this falls within what you're asking, but Dr. Meaney, I know, has done research on it with the levels of the release of oxytocin in our bodies when interacting with animals. The release of that will help you with the decrease of anxiety, stress, and depression. I know he's done studies to that level.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
So there is some potential evidence, but anecdotally we all know what you're saying is correct, because dogs, in particular, have the same effect on all human beings.
4:10 p.m.
MCpl Bill Nachuk
Yes, sir. You see them widely in hospitals, in hospices. Just going through Confederation Park earlier today was kind of ironic, because I saw the statue of the dog from way back in the wars. If they're good enough to be mascots and basically soldiers back in history, why did we get away from that?
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
Yes. I buy your argument that if Veterans Affairs will fund a dog for the blind, why wouldn't they fund a therapeutic dog? That makes perfectly good sense to me. There was your other argument that it's either meds or the cost of a dog, and if you can drop your meds from $24,000 to $4,000.... You can get a lot of dog for $20,000.
4:10 p.m.
MCpl Bill Nachuk
With that, sir, from my point of view, after I started working with my dog, I went from being driven from Shilo to Brandon twice a week for appointments at the OSI clinic. After I started to work with my dog, my meds went down and my appointments for depression went from twice a week to once every two weeks. Therefore, within a month that would pay easily for the subsidy of the dog.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
Could you describe your problems with the chain of command and the CF medical system? Like Mr. Strahl, I'm somewhat shocked that anyone, whether it's within the chain of command or the medical system, would say that you can barely take care of yourself, so how are you going to take care of a dog? Could you tell us what other issues you've had with either the chain of command or the medical system itself?
4:10 p.m.
MCpl Bill Nachuk
Yes, sir.
Because I was one of the first trying to get involved with this on our working base in Shilo, I was hauled into the RSM's office. There were approximately four other officers there, including my OC, the adjutant of the unit.... I basically got chewed out for what I believe is trying to get myself additional help. That's when I was threatened with medical release, saying that if I needed a dog, obviously I'm not stable enough to be in the military.
When I informed Mr. Leonard about that, I was fortunate to get some support from some other people here in Ottawa. I'm not sure if it's proper that I mention their names, but they got involved, and fortunately for me, a few calls were made and I was given some leeway, because I'd asked to try to get involved in this program that I know was presented to the CF in 2010 by Mr. Leonard. They did begin a trial with the service dog program, and that was what I wanted to try to get involved in. In doing so, I was threatened with medical release. I was scrutinized.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
Well, you're still, in some respects, threatened with medical release—
4:10 p.m.
MCpl Bill Nachuk
Yes.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
—because you know that if you have any kind of a relapse, of whatever kind, you're cooked.
4:10 p.m.
MCpl Bill Nachuk
Yes. I was told that by my medical doctor in Shilo. As well, once I got to Gagetown, I was told that there as well, by another military doctor there.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
4:10 p.m.
MCpl Bill Nachuk
Yes, I did.
Because I'm a member of the military and of course they got called when I was having problems with suicide, I became what I feel is like a target. They'd be circling my house all the time, almost every half hour on the hour. They would be watching everywhere I go. They'd pull me over just out of the blue to see if I was drinking or how I was.
Being on a snow machine.... I was inside a house, and my snow machine wouldn't turn off. They came there. My machine wouldn't turn off after I was driving it for hours. We had a couple of drinks inside the house. They actually charged me with a DUI. This went to court, and all the charges were dropped because I was in the house, not even on the machine, nothing.... They would do whatever they could to try to keep tabs on me, and that would just add extra pressure.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON
Does the base fear that you're going to do harm to yourself or others? Is that the theory the military police would be following?