Evidence of meeting #30 for Natural Resources in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was reactor.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Ivanco  Vice-President, Society of Professional Engineers and Associates
Robert Atcher  Past President, International Society of Nuclear Medicine
Sandy McEwan  Special Advisor on Medical Isotopes to the Minister of Health, As an Individual
Hugh MacDiarmid  President and Chief Executive Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited
Bill Pilkington  Senior Vice-President and Chief Nuclear Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited
Serge Dupont  Special Advisor to the Minister of Natural Resources on Nuclear Energy Policy , Department of Natural Resources
Tom Wallace  Director General, Electricity Resources Branch, Department of Natural Resources
David Caplan  Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

There may be some further discussion on this, but I would like to thank the witnesses very much for coming this afternoon.

Mr. Dupont and Mr. Wallace, you may leave the table, if you like, so that you don't have to take part in this discussion.

Mr. Regan has asked for unanimous consent. Before I go to that, I'd like to say that there seems to be some misunderstanding about who was and who wasn't invited to this meeting. As chair, I've been in discussion with the clerk. He has pointed out to me that there was a press release put out by the Canadian Association of Nuclear Medicine this afternoon. One of the people who signed off on that was Mr. O'Brien, complaining that he wasn't allowed to come to this committee. In fact, he was invited and he declined.

So I don't know what's.... There are, I guess, some very strange things happening in terms of what's being said and what actually happened.

Mr. Regan, you have a right to come and ask for unanimous consent.

I will ask, is there unanimous consent for the proposal that Mr. Regan has put forth?

5:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

No, there is not, Mr. Regan.

We will now suspend this meeting. We have one more witness this afternoon, and that is the Ontario health minister. He has chosen to appear not in person, not by video conference, but by telephone only.

We'll allow a little time for set-up, about two or three minutes, and then we'll go to our last witness.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good afternoon again, everyone. We have our last witness now by telephone, and it's the Honourable David Caplan, the Ontario Minister of Health.

Welcome, Mr. Caplan. Are you on the phone?

August 21st, 2009 / 5:10 p.m.

David Caplan Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario

Mr. Chair, yes, I am here. Thank you for inviting me to be here in front of the committee.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you. Do you have an opening statement to make, Mr. Caplan?

5:10 p.m.

Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario

David Caplan

Yes, I do, sir.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. I want to start by thanking you for inviting me to appear before the committee. I'm glad to be able to bring Ontario's voice to the table, and I'm here because I am concerned. Our province has relied upon the National Research Universal reactor at Chalk River for 95% of our supply of medical isotopes, but over the past few years, we have become increasingly anxious about the sustainability of the supply. As I believe you all know, it can be disrupted suddenly and with little warning, and because of the just-in-time way that isotopes are produced and delivered, health care providers feel the effects of critical disruption almost immediately and, of course, the effect on health care patients.

As you can imagine, the shutdown of the Chalk River nuclear reactor on May 15 has had significant implications for Ontario patients and Ontario health care providers. Since the week of July 26, supply has been cut in half, and now even as low as 40%. As a province, we have been challenged. That said, I want to assure the members of this committee that Ontario is doing everything it can to respond to this disruption.

We are taking action to ensure that we can continue providing patients with the high-quality scans that they depend upon. For example, in June of this year, we provided $1.4 million to fund the production of an alternative isotope called 18F sodium fluoride. Using PET technology, this alternative allows Ontario to provide 2,000 patients with needed bone scans. It's an innovative solution that is ensuring that Ontarians have access to important diagnostic procedures during this challenging time.

We are also providing guidance to the nuclear medicine community to make sure health providers are maximizing available isotopes. By modifying scanning techniques, prioritizing patients, and using alternative diagnostic tools, I am very proud to say that we have been able to minimize the effects of the disruption. We have done that by being responsive and proactive and by anticipating the challenges to come.

Ontario has one of the most comprehensive medical isotope disruption plans of any of Canada's provinces. It is a plan developed based upon the advice of the Ontario Isotope Working Group. The working group is made up of key stakeholders and physician leaders, including the Ontario Association of Nuclear Medicine, Cancer Care Ontario, and the Cardiac Care Network.

Our plan establishes three levels of response, with tier one representing a minor reduction in supply and tier three representing a critical disruption. Ontario is currently operating at a tier two response level. There has been a significant reduction in isotope supply, but our providers have been able to continue managing the disruption locally and we have been offering guidance to our health care professionals.

Tier two triggers the partial activation of the ministry's emergency operations centre. The operations centre monitors isotope supply with the federal government and ensures that all of our health care providers have the tools and information they need to be able to respond.

I want to stress the importance of coordination and collaboration with our federal government colleagues, because Ontario, like all provinces, is relying upon advice, guidance, and information from the federal government as we develop our own response plans, and I want to assure this committee that we are in regular communication with Health Canada officials, because we depend upon them to keep us up to date on the status of the NRU and to share best practices and contingency planning. These, however, are short-term measures.

I am present here today because I'd like to seek clarification about the federal government's plans. By sharing Ontario's story, I hope to foster a federal understanding of the difficult situation I'm sure many provinces now face.

Ontario is operating under the assumption that the Chalk River nuclear reactor will be repaired and that it will continue to produce medical isotopes until a suitable and affordable alternative can be arranged. It's disappointing that Chalk River will remain closed, we are told now, until the spring of 2010.

I would like the government's assurance that it is committed to repairing the NRU. To help us plan, I would ask for regular updates from the government on the progress of the repair, as well as clarification about when we might again expect the nuclear reactor to resume producing isotopes.

Also, given that we are now reliant on international isotope suppliers, I would ask for regular updates on outages at other international reactors.

Finally, our front-line health care partners have informed us of higher-than-normal costs for medical isotopes. Clearly the federal government should compensate Ontario health providers for these additional costs that they are currently facing as a result of the shortage.

I want to finish my formal remarks by emphasizing my willingness to work with health care partners and all levels of government to ensure that we can find solutions to this problem. Chalk River is a valuable national resource, providing a critical diagnostic tool to all Canadians who need it. It is important that the federal government show leadership and develop a comprehensive, clear, and coordinated plan. Our health care providers, indeed all Canadians, deserve and depend on access to a stable and affordable supply of radioisotopes.

I want to reiterate my thanks to this committee for offering me this opportunity to be able to present, and I eagerly await any questions or comments that committee members might have.

Thank you very much.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Minister.

Before we get started with questions, I would remind everyone that this is the natural resources committee and not the health committee. If the questions stray into an area that is more reasonably dealt with by the health committee, I will suggest that you invite these witnesses, and this particular witness, to the health committee, if you'd like to do that. But let's stick to the issue at hand. Let's stick to the instructions in the letters written by opposition members and start the questioning.

We will go to the first questioner, for up to five minutes.

Ms. Bennett, go ahead, please.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Thank you very much.

I'm afraid that the patients of Canada don't see the way the government can operate in these sorts of silos, as you've described. We have a health minister before us, and I believe we should, with the will of the committee members, be able to ask questions about the well-being of Canadians and how they will get the tests they need with the isotope crisis as it is.

So I will start with a question. It has a dollar sign in front of it instead of a stethoscope, if that's what you'd prefer.

Minister, last week the Toronto Star reported that isotope costs were increasing from $5,000 to $30,000 and this is just beginning to appear on the clinics' monthly isotope invoices. How are Ontario hospitals and clinics handling this increased cost of medical isotopes?

5:20 p.m.

Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario

David Caplan

Thank you very much for the question.

Our estimate so far is that direct additional costs to hospitals and clinics are in the order of $1.7 million. Additionally, we have invested in an alternative form of supply, approximately $1.4 million toward the sodium fluoride isotope. The estimate we have is that if things continue under the current regime, and that anticipates that there will not be a reduction in international supply, by the time Chalk River comes back we could well see a quadrupling of those costs.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Minister, are these the costs that you're asking the federal government to reimburse you for?

5:20 p.m.

Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario

David Caplan

I have written to federal Minister Aglukkaq and to Minister Raitt. It is my contention that this problem has been created by the federal government and that the federal government should fix it. Absolutely, there should be compensation.

I want to stress that compensation is not for the province. It is for hospitals and diagnostic facilities that are unfairly strapped, and ultimately it would be patients who would suffer because of procedures that would not be funded as a result of funding shortfalls.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Minister, it seems that there has also been some reporting that hospitals might cut back on procedures in order to not run a deficit. Is that a concern of yours?

5:20 p.m.

Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario

David Caplan

That is a concern of mine. We are in fact tracking. It is very hard to quantify, but we are seeing weeks of delay in terms of having diagnostic procedures done. That means weeks of delay in physicians' ordering the appropriate treatment for cancer patients and for some cardiac patients. The effect upon the patients who require it and their families, of course, is my greatest concern.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

The sodium fluoride that you suggested can only be used with a PET scanner, Minister. Are you aware of any leadership from the federal government in helping roll out a PET strategy, as the Canadian Association of Nuclear Medicine has asked?

5:25 p.m.

Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario

David Caplan

I am not aware of it.

I will say that quite recently I have added PET scans as an OHIP-insured service. In fact, we have one of the largest PET infrastructures in Canada, with ten PET scanners at nine centres. One additional PET scanner is expected to be operational this fall at the Thunder Bay Regional Health Sciences Centre and will be part of Ontario's PET program.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

We have heard that for PET scanning, even though the isotope is much more expensive, centres can only do about 10 procedures a day rather than the 40 bone scans that could be done with the gamma camera.

Are you aware of increased wait times or cancellations or re-booking?

5:25 p.m.

Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario

David Caplan

We have not tracked additional wait times for PET scanners at this point. You are quite correct that it is only for bone scans. It is something that we are concerned about and are monitoring, but to date we have not seen an increase in wait times or any backup, as we have in other areas.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Minister, you said that you've stood up your operations centre in order to track and map the availability of isotopes. Are you aware of whether the federal government has stood up its operations centre?

5:25 p.m.

Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario

David Caplan

I have not had any confirmation that the federal operations centre is operational.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

I know that Quebec has offered to help on PET scanning, particularly here in Ottawa, given that there's a PET scanner in Gatineau. They've offered to help New Brunswick, if asked. Are you aware of any leadership exhibited by Sandy McEwan or the federal government in helping provinces to help one another?

5:25 p.m.

Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario

David Caplan

Well, I would say quite fairly that Ontario officials have been working with federal officials to be able to monitor and understand the situation. I cannot speak about the efforts with other provinces, but I would characterize the working relationship between the federal government and the provincial government as a good and constructive one.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Thank you.

In terms of your request for updates, are you saying that up until now you've not really been given updates of the status of the Chalk River reactor or of the international alternatives?

5:25 p.m.

Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario

David Caplan

I think one of the challenges is that while we do receive updates, they've largely become known through the media, or they are quite late. To do our planning and to develop any mitigation strategies, we need real-time and quick information.

I would say that the greatest disappointment I've had is that when we were advised that the Chalk River reactor was going down, the original timeframe was for a very short turnaround for its operations to continue. That, of course, has come and gone, and we were told that it would be the summer. That has come and gone, and now we are told that it will be the spring.

I would say, Ms. Bennett, that we need a firm assurance of when that's going to happen, and also what the outlets are going to be, so that we can adequately take the mitigation steps or steps necessary to provide the scans for Ontario patients.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Minister Aglukkaq has said that—