Official Languages Committee on Nov. 9th, 2006

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you for having come here to meet with us. I find it very interesting that, as a government, we are here to take notes and find out what you need. You are at the very core of the francophone community in Toronto. It is good for us to understand things and see them from a different perspective.

My first question is for Jean-Gilles Pelletier.

What is your greatest challenge right now in your community? I would also like to know what you consider your greatest achievement. How did you succeed in that achievement? If you had any approaches to recommend to the government, what would they be?

[Jean-Gilles Pelletier]

I would like to thank you for providing us with this golden opportunity to talk to you not only about our biggest challenges, but also about our greatest successes. I will start with the success stories, since it is easier for me to do so.

As it turns out, our greatest success is our integrated services model. I think it has taught us a lesson and we are going to try in extending it as much as possible to the entire country. It might actually have a domino effect. We discussed this, I have talked about a lot today, and David also referred to it. It is not easy implementing such a model. I refer to this as a success story, and that is true. But it is also a huge challenge, as it is not easy setting up a centre that relies on 13 different backers and provides 37 separate programs, each and everyone of which requires its own brand of bookkeeping.

When it comes to accountability, our centre enjoys the support of federal, provincial and municipal backers, provincial foundations, and so on and so forth. This all requires a very complicated operations management process. This is a huge challenge which we face on a weekly basis. It is no easy task but we step up to the plate with good old fashion hard work. We think it is important for the clients to have that kind of access to integrated services.

Our greatest challenge is keeping the pieces of the puzzle intact, making sure we are able to serve and accommodate people in an appropriate setting, in other words, in adequate premises. In our brief, we refer to the maison de la francophonie. The Franco-torontorians community is looking at this issue right now. Would such a facility be useful? Would it meet needs in terms of access to integrated multi-disciplinary services? Would it be feasible to set up such a facility? Do we have enough money to set up a maison de la francophonie?

Such facilities exist in several Canadian cities, but not in Toronto. Steps are now being taken to change this. We need to have a better understanding of the issues faced by the Franco-torontonian community in order to assess their needs. And in order to meet these needs, there will come a time when we will be knocking on the federal government's door.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much.

Do I have any time left?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

You have a minute and a half left.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I would like to ask Ms. Rauzon-Wright the same question, if I may.

Where do you live? What is your community's greatest challenge? What is its greatest achievement? Perhaps you are able to give us some potential solutions for the future.

[Nicole Rauzon-Wright]

I would like to clarify something. The network's coverage is from Penetanguishene to Toronto and from Peterborough to Windsor. Jean-Gilles would have a job for life is he decided to go to all these communities and try and get community centres built. The problem is that nobody wants to travel 75 kilometres in order to get information only to have to turn around and come all the way back. So, we really need to multiply and set up similar centres in our communities.

When it comes to laying the ground work, our greatest achievement, in my opinion, was making federal and provincial politicians aware that there are in fact Francophones outside Quebec, that we form a vibrant community and that we will continue to fight in order to get health care services in French.

I moved to Ontario 25 years ago; at that time, schools were a big problem. We were sent off to the schools the anglophones were not interested in. Students with problems were taught in the broiler room. I am not making this up: there really was a table in the boiler room, and that is where the children were taught. So, we really have come a long way in this regard since the French-language Services Act was passed in Ontario 20 years ago. We are now at the stage where time has come to deal with the health care issue. We sit back and watch astronomical sums of money being spent on health care. We need to make sure that some of this money flows down to francophones.

So that was our greatest achievement, and our biggest challenge is staying the course.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Ms. Barbot, the floor is yours.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

Thank you.

I listened to everything you said and what strikes me in particular is the fact that francophone communities outside Quebec should not be immigrants in their own country. The lack of services leads me to believe that people do not have access to what is rightfully theirs. Mr. Graham Fraser, the new Official Languages Commissioner, has the advantage of being familiar with the situations of both communities because he is an anglophone and has lived in Quebec. You will surely be pleased to learn that he defines governmental responsibility in terms of services, in other words, services which francophones living outside Quebec are entitled to and which are there for Quebec anglophones. They need to be able to live in an environment which respects them fully, in which they feel comfortable, in which they can completely be themselves, and in which they can go about their business in their own language.

This is not some psychedelic invention; it is enshrined in the Constitution. Governments need to take this fact into account and they must realize that they have a duty to act in that regard. We, in Quebec, and we, of the Bloc Québécois, are trying to build bridges. Of course, we are working on another national project, but it remains that we feel we have a responsibility and a connection with francophones outside Quebec. We would like to build a stronger sense of solidarity with them, but we also feel we have a duty towards francophones living outside Quebec.

Ms. Rauzon, the first letters of you name are r, a, and u. I have a cousin whom I am very close to. She is my husband's cousin, whose last name is Roson. But the first letters of her surname are r and o. She told me her father was originally from Ontario, but she does not know the other members of her family at all. There is no contact between the two sides and there are practically no Rozons living in Montreal any more. However, it is clear that there is a very real connection.

I will conclude by asking Mr. Pelletier a question about funding. Of course, funding is the cornerstone for all of your groups. Do you receive statutory funding? Are you recognized? You basically do the work of the government. Do you have to fight for funding all the time? Cutbacks are being made. Have you lost a third of your funding? What is the real situation?

[Jean-Gilles Pelletier]

I can't talk about my real life—

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

No.

[Jean-Gilles Pelletier]

... I will talk about the life of the organization.

Provincial funding has become much more stable. There is a mechanism, if I can use that expression, because your question is very specific. The funding we receive from provincial departments comes in a form of grants. This type of funding is much more regular and the areas of responsibility contained in agreements are much more clear and specific, not only as far as the centre's responsibilities are concerned, but also the responsibilities of the funding organization, given the fact that it is asking the centre to carry out work on its behalf.

As for the federal government, it works in a completely different way. There are very few funding agreements by way of grants; the funding agreements are by way of contributions. This is a basic problem for several reasons.

First, the contribution agreements must be renewed every year. It is very rare that a contribution agreement is spread out over several years, and if it is, it would be for very specific projects, with a beginning and an end, after which the whole process would begin anew.

Second, let's talk about the funding process. It involves transfers based on refunds. This complicates things: there is a lot of paper work and organizations have to deal with a lot of red tape, much more so at the federal than at the provincial level, in fact, the paper burden, in my opinion, is four or five times heavier with the federal government. This is scandalous. There is no doubt that the federal government imposes accountability requirements when it transfers money to agencies. That is understandable, but the provincial government has managed to establish rules which are more flexible and which are also adapted to the size and the capacity of smaller community agencies.

I would like to add a few words on that subject. I have high expectations of a group of experts which was given the mandate to review and make recommendations on the implementation of Treasury Board's draft policy on transfer payments. This group was created by the federal government, for which it should be congratulated. It is chaired by Frances Lankin, who is the president of the United Way in Toronto. I had the opportunity to take part in consultations with Frances Lankin to help her better understand the impact these types of transfers have on agencies, and in particular francophone agencies in Toronto. Several of the points I raised in my presentation today were points I addressed during my presentation to Frances Lankin. I would really like this committee to make recommendations which will then be implemented by the various federal government departments; that would make life much easier for us. I am not saying that accountability should be removed; I am just saying that manageable accountability measures should be imposed on agencies, and everyone should agree on the objectives, but we should have tools which are easier to manage to help us measure outcomes.

Thank you for your question.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Mr. Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Good morning.

I would like to begin by thanking you for being here today. I listened closely to what you had to say. I am a new member of Parliament since I am a Conservative from Quebec. It has been said that our kind is a mystery.

I am pleased that you are here today. For the first time in 25 years, as our chairman said, we are visiting you. Whether decisions are taken or not, the fact remains that we came to see you. I think this is a sign of respect towards minority francophone communities. You have shared some of your problems with us and we have listened. That is why we are here. Whether what you say about the government is positive or negative is not the point. What matters, however, is that we establish a relationship.

We visited Newfoundland and Moncton, among other places, and one issue in particular caught my attention. The population is aging everywhere, in Quebec and elsewhere. Medical care therefore becomes extremely important. People have told us that it is hard to keep French speaking staff. It is not enough to speak about this problem: we have to make sure that the services are available.

Which leads me to my next question. We need to be realistic and not create problems where there are none. We have to make sure that things work. Your physicians are paid much more than those in Quebec. How do you retain your French speaking doctors?

That seems to be a problem for you. The French speaking population is growing old, in my province and yours as well. This issue will become urgent soon. Have you already considered a range of solutions or have you begun to apply some of them?

Mr. Pelletier or Mr. Boisvenue may respond.

[Jean-Gilles Pelletier]

David would like to say a few words.

[David Laliberté]

I will let Jean-Gilles speak in a few moments so he can answer your question about physicians.

As far as federal government funding is concerned, we are asking that several issues be improved. However, I want to insist on the fact that the federal government is a very important partner, or rather an essential partner, for the Centre francophone de Toronto.

Of course, problems do crop up, but our federal partner has helped us a great deal and has always supported us. I do not want this discussion to end on an entirely negative note, since there are many positive aspects to this story. In fact, we have just received an increase in funding for our citizenship and immigration activities. We really appreciated that. I think that the money will help the francophone population in Toronto to grow.

Of course, as in any relationship between two people or two entities, there is room for improvement. That is why we are here today. I also hope that you will take the list we have attached to our document in that spirit.

I will now let Jean-Gilles say a few words.

[Jean-Gilles Pelletier]

Thank you. That was an excellent clarification, David. Again, I must say that the funding we receive from the federal government for official languages is crucial for our organization, as well as for the francophones who benefit from our services.

Mr. Petit, you asked how it was possible for us to retain bilingual staff in a minority environment. There are three possible answers. I am sure that Jean-Marc and Nicole would also like to speak to that.

In a minority francophone environment, professionals must be paid well. Francophones have to be trained in French in Ontario. However, I have to say in all honesty that, at the centre, some of our professionals are Francophiles who speak excellent French. They did their postsecondary studies in French and have devoted themselves to the francophone cause. That's terrific. So in that regard, we can congratulate the federal government for having invested as much as it did in education in both official languages.

The third point is the most fundamental one, which is that you have to create a work environment which accommodates professionals. I am not only referring to the area of health care, but also to the areas of social services, early childhood education and interdisciplinary practice, all in French. It is very difficult to achieve this if you do not have a critical mass of stakeholders. Doctors, including those who work in Quebec's local community service centres, say that they make a lot less than there peers in the rest of the country, but that their working conditions are better. And that is why they stay in Quebec.

The same is true for doctors and professionals who work at the Centre francophone in Toronto. They have the opportunity to work in French in an interdisciplinary environment which promotes collaboration. They feel they get the support they need. They don't feel alone.

For anyone who works in isolation in their given field, be it law, psychology, medicine or any other area, the fact of working alone is very difficult. Working in a team can make all the difference.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Thank you, Mr. Pelletier.

I would like to give Mr. Boisvenue a few moments to respond.

[Jean-Marc Boisvenue]

We are in a process of conducting a follow up of our study. We are determining who, in southern and central Ontario, speaks French and who is providing service in French. We have discovered many important surprises. For instance, 265 out of 1 500 drugstores provide services in French. We have to find and identify French speaking service providers and make them known to francophones. The same goes for dentists, orthodontists and others. We will cover all services, but that will take time.

Somebody asked whether there were successes, to which I can say yes. Société Santé en français is a huge success. Health Canada funded this organization, which has unable francophones to raise their profiles in various provinces. We have positioned ourselves in Ontario to play a key role with local health integration networks, which will look after the planning.

Société Santé en français is indeed a success. This organization is now operating at the local level. The work is ongoing, and it will go on for a very long time.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Now I would like to use up my allotted time.

We heard comments about immigration and other things, but as far as I am concerned, I think that people who immigrate to Canada are no longer immigrants, they are Canadians. On the other hand, we must remember that Canada was founded by francophones and anglophones. They are the founding peoples. For this reason, the Official Languages Act recognizes that this country has two founding peoples. I think that we agree on this?

We have an Official Languages Act, but we nevertheless need a minister for official languages and a parliamentary committee that does follow-ups to ensure that the provisions of the Official Languages Act are followed. We know that the problems are mainly found within francophone minorities.

Would you agree with me in saying that the government has a basic responsibility? It must stop sitting between two chairs and it must provide us with tools. We must stop apologizing for having received money and overflowing with gratitude while saying that all is well. Things are not well. If they were, the lady who represents senior citizens would not have anything to complain about. She cannot get service in French in Oshawa although there are many francophones in that city. It is full of people from New Brunswick! The same thing is happening in Windsor and in St. Catharines, Ontario. Francophones are leaving New Brunswick to settle in your cities, but there are also francophones from your region that move to our region.

Without having to beg, would you tell the government that it must provide services to Ontario's francophone minority?

[Marcelle Jomphe-LeClaire]

I would certainly tell it that I want the same services as the ones that anglophones get, but I want them in French. I do not want books that are translated from English to French; I want books that are adapted to the needs of francophones.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

Thank you.

[David Laliberté]

We agree on one basic principle: The francophone population must have access to services in its language. If you want to know whether francophones should have services comparable to those given to anglophones, our answer is yes.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

All right, but what is the federal government's responsibility in this matter?

[David Laliberté]

This cannot be done over night, but the government must try to promote—

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Yvon Godin]

I know that this is a big challenge, but francophones have been in Canada for 402 years. The 400^th anniversary was celebrated two years ago. We were here first; do you remember?