Evidence of meeting #30 for Official Languages in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tests.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:20 a.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
The problem is with the way departments operate. If you work every day in both languages, there's a lot more impetus for you to speak the other language. For example, the Public Service Commission is a truly bilingual organization; our meetings take place in both languages.
9:20 a.m.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
When Mr. Masse became the Minister of National Defence, he said that he wanted his memos to be in French, which led to an angry outcry in the department. I heard about this in the media. Seems that things haven't really changed since then. As you said, bilingualism seems to be more of a problem in some departments than it is in others. And that's something that needs to be seen to.
I would like to broach another issue. As a francophone, my English test is tougher than the French test is for an anglophone. I've never seen the tests and I have never sat for a test. But this is what some people have told me. Perhaps it's because they failed and were not happy with the outcome. The questions deal with culture or idioms; other questions involve multiple choice or role play.
How can you back up the statement that the English and French tests are really equivalent? You said that the tests were of excellent quality, Mr. Edwards, but my question is still valid. Is my concern warranted? I imagine that you're trying to work around this. How do you ensure that such discrepancies don't occur?
9:25 a.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
I can perhaps respond initially and let Mr. Edwards follow up.
We're in the process of overhauling the tests to ensure they have a focus on everyday language. Now, as far as whether or not one test is easier than another, experts like Mr. Edwards assure me that the tests are valid in both languages and that they meet the A, B and C standards. Still, we can ask him what process he carries out to ensure that this is the case.
9:25 a.m.
Director, Research and Development, Personnel Psychology Centre, Staffing and Assessment Services Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada
In fact, I can assure you that we use every means at our disposal, be they technical or professional, to ensure that the French and English tests are equivalent. In my opinion, that's a very important and relevant question, since English and French are two different language systems with different vocabulary and grammatical rules.
In the process of developing new tests, we ensure that the test's table of contents, in other words the grid upon which the test's content is determined, is the same for both English and French tests. We also ensure, despite the fact that the tests are developed by two different teams with francophone language consultants in one group and anglophone consultants in the other, that the teams consistently work together. They interact on a continuous basis to ensure that the tests are identical.
In addition to using the typical psychometric methods, we use an approach called the Item Response Theory in English. This is a statistical method designed to compare tests to ensure their equivalency. Moreover, we ensure that the items' level of difficulty is similar during the pilot study process. We're more than aware of the fact that the average second language proficiency of francophones in Quebec far exceeds the average second language proficiency of anglophones in British Columbia, for example.
We ensure that the samples we choose for our pilot studies are sufficiently diverse and representative of the full gamut of skills. And we base our levels on this.
And we continue to do statistical studies on our tests to ensure that—
9:25 a.m.
Director, Research and Development, Personnel Psychology Centre, Staffing and Assessment Services Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada
When I am asked a technical question, I tend to go on and on. I'm sorry about that.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Steven Blaney
Thank you very much, Mr. Edwards. You really took off there.
We'll now move on to Mr. Godin.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I'm going to continue along the same lines. Why, for example—perhaps I should bring in the documents—at the Department of National Defence, are the tests for francophones longer than they are for anglophones? There are more questions, etc. This is a known fact even today, in 2008.
9:30 a.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
Are you referring to tests for members of the armed forces, or tests for the public servants of DND?
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
I'm referring to the tests for members of the armed forces who want to rise through the ranks and who must be proficient in both languages.
Is the commission responsible for that?
9:30 a.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
No, we are not responsible for that, but I will nonetheless ask Mr. Lemaire to answer your question.
While we do offer this service to members of the military, it's possible the department has its very own unique tests.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
So it may have its own tests for the members of the armed forces, along with those of the commission.
Is the commission nonetheless responsible in any way at all, and if so, why would there be a different number of questions on the tests?
9:30 a.m.
Donald Lemaire Vice-President, Staffing and Assessment Services Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada
I am unable to answer that question because I am not aware of that specific situation. According to our agreement with the Department of National Defence, it can use the results of its tests—because the employee may wish to occupy other positions within the public service—but those results must be known and equivalent to those of the tests that we administer.
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
The Public Service Commission of Canada has delegated its staffing powers to the deputy minister, subject to the conditions it has established.
Which conditions have you established and why did you delegate your powers?
9:30 a.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
We delegated staffing responsibilities, except for a few such as the use of the priority system. Under this system, managers must contact the Public Service Commission of Canada to find out whether there is a person on the priority list who can occupy a position. This person may be absent, on sick leave or have had an accident, among other things.
The other exclusions were investigative powers. We cannot delegate all areas linked to political issues.
9:30 a.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
Because throughout the legislative renewal process in 2003, we held many discussions about the best approach to take to modernize staffing. In the preamble to the legislation, there is a directive requiring the Public Service Commission of Canada to delegate and to have a system under which managers are responsible down to the lowest level possible. The idea was to obtain a veritable commitment on the part of the managers. At the same time, with this system of delegation, we can focus much more on monitoring and audits.
9:30 a.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
Yes. We prepare an annual report. It is not complete, but we now have a delegated system. The policy frameworks are in place and we are carrying out monitoring and audits. We have found that we have made good progress, but there are situations where we—
9:30 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
For example, was the coast guard delegated to the Deputy Minister of Fisheries and Oceans Canada or to the Deputy Minister of Transport Canada? Have things improved? When the coast guard vessel Simon Fraser went to the Magdalen Islands, no one on board spoke French. What are the results?
9:30 a.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
We have not evaluated language use within the Canadian Coast Guard, but recently, I submitted a report to Parliament concerning the RCMP. Staffing at the RCMP really caused us problems.
9:35 a.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
In that case, we established conditions for the delegations. We established restrictions and we made sure that there was someone from the Public Service Commission of Canada who worked with them. When we have problems, we take corrective action.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Let's talk about training. I'm going to give you an example. In Bathurst, anglophones who want to learn or improve their French are paid by the government. In addition this training is offered during working hours. However, francophones must take this training in the evening, during their free time, without being paid. Why are the conditions not the same for both groups?
9:35 a.m.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
I don't understand that specific case, but according to the current system, the managers are the ones who determine the type of expenditures for the training. They are the ones who decide how to ensure that public servants have the qualifications they need to provide services and perform the supervision that is required of them.