Public Accounts Committee on May 8th, 2023

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Which ones don't you do?

[Karen Hogan]

We don't audit the Bank of Canada or the Canada Pension Plan Investment Board.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Why don't you do those audits?

[Karen Hogan]

For the financial audits, that's a question you would have to ask the lawmakers. Our office was not mentioned in the acts pertaining to those two corporations.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay.

[Karen Hogan]

That's it for the financial statements. We do those audits every year.

We also have a mandate for special examinations. Under the act, we are required to do a special examination of parent Crown corporations every 10 years. We try to do between three and five special examinations per year.

As for our performance audit mandate, it's rather complicated. We can usually include a Crown corporation if it is administering a government program. However, the Auditor General Act is a little less clear on special examinations for Crown corporations.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Perfect. I will return to this in the next round because I believe I have about 20 seconds left. How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You have 24 seconds left.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay.

What I'd really like to know is how it might be possible to amend the act to improve it or to expand your mandate. I'll let you think about that until the next round.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Good. Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I too want to thank the witnesses for being present here, especially the Auditor General, on such an important day for us.

I want to ask you about your future plans, but on a more particular aspect I am personally, but also on behalf of Canadians, very interested in regard to your experience with the strike. Of course, we have seen unprecedented action this last year in terms of workers demanding respect and trying to understand the issues pertaining to each unit.

When I first arrived in Parliament, there was a matter of disagreement between us and the fact that the Auditor General's Office was going on strike. I met many of the workers, nearly 160 of them, and many of them talked about the terrible working conditions, the culture, the issues of pay, going to food banks. These were workers who were under your charge.

Why was it that when we brought you in to speak about these issues, and we even brought in members of the Treasury Board, we were unable to get an answer to the question of who was accountable and who was making the decisions?

During that time, I asked you directly whether or not you could end the strike, and you responded with no, you could not, and that it was a mandate of Treasury Board, which had to give you an ability to do this. Then when we asked Treasury Board the same question, they said no, it was the direct employer. As a result, I'm a bit confused, and I think Canadians are confused as well.

Who did this in many ways, in terms of who wasn't at the table and who was accountable, and why did the workers feel as though they were forced to go on strike?

[Karen Hogan]

In my mind, responsibility and accountability were always very clear. The Auditor General Act makes me accountable and responsible for setting the terms and conditions for all employees unless they are represented by a bargaining agent. When they are represented by a bargaining agent, it becomes the Treasury Board Secretariat. It was very clear to me that I was negotiating within the mandate given to my office by Parliament. We did have a team of negotiators, but we have to—and I think I explained this to the committee before—stay within the financial envelope or fence that is given by Treasury Board.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Specifically on the envelope, I think this is the most interesting aspect. I think Canadians want to see transparency and some light into how the strike actually happened. In terms of your example, one of the earliest in this Parliament, it could help with this. I really do appreciate your answers here in this respect.

On the envelope, it's my understanding that this envelope is established largely by Treasury Board through a global mandate and binds several bargaining agents and several bargaining tables, including yours. Do you have any ability to advocate for yourself as an employer with Treasury Board, and to understand the circumstances that arose with the strike? Were you able to actually have your voice heard to prevent such a strike?

[Karen Hogan]

I was able to speak to Treasury Board, but I cannot change the envelope, the mandate that is given to us.

You are correct that it is a financial mandate that is given by Treasury Board to bargaining agents. It's based on a percentage, I believe, of the salary of the employee group. I could not make that larger.

If I had brought forward a deal that went outside of that, it would still require the government to approve it. We believed that it would not get approved. We were clearly told that we needed to stay within the envelope provided.

Andrew, I don't know if you want to add any particularities.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Sure.

[Andrew Hayes]

I might add a few things.

We wrote to the committee in December 2021 to inform the committee about some of the challenges that we faced in terms of collective bargaining and that particular strike, which had only just begun. When we had the hearing here—and I forget the date, but it was earlier this year—we had central agency representatives here. The associate deputy minister of finance provided some clarity on this, stating exactly where the mandate came from. I believe he even mentioned that it comes directly from the Prime Minister. I could be wrong on that, but I'm sure the blues for that will show what was said.

For us, ultimately there's a degree of control that we have over certain aspects of the contracting in terms of the terms and conditions within our own organization—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Sorry. Just to speak more directly about the statement you made in relation to the Prime Minister and the mandate, are you saying the Prime Minister is directly related to the issuing of the mandate?

[Andrew Hayes]

I'm saying that's what the associate deputy minister of finance said when he was here with us at that hearing earlier this year. It was important for us, because we had been trying to get the message across to our employees throughout the strike that we were constrained by the mandate given to us by the centre.

I should say, though, that there were examples in legislation historically of the Canada Revenue Agency, for example, having an ability to set its own collective bargaining mandate. That had been removed from legislation.

Ultimately—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Largely, the government changed the environment for these collective bargaining agents, and in effect was able to.... We know there are examples outside of this global mandate. You're citing one—the CRA, for example.

To go back to that comment you made in relation to the Prime Minister, can you just repeat the words of the ADM again?

[Andrew Hayes]

It was the associate deputy minister of finance, at this committee, who said that he confirmed that we did not have the authority to set the mandate but that it's done centrally, including with the involvement of the Prime Minister. That was the associate deputy minister.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

The Prime Minister put the workers on strike.

[Andrew Hayes]

I can't say that. All I can say is what the associate deputy minister of finance said.

[Karen Hogan]

I think what might be important to say is that when our employees went out on strike, I think it was 90—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I'm not actually [Inaudible—Editor] right? I'm trying to figure out who is responsible—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Desjarlais, your time is up.