Public Accounts Committee on May 8th, 2023

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I understand.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

If the auditor would like to answer, you do know I like to get her answers. I'm cutting you off, not her.

If you have a few last comments, Ms. Hogan, please go ahead.

[Karen Hogan]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The majority of the public service had already negotiated and settled agreements within the mandate. There was a very small percentage of bargaining agents that had not yet done so, and we were one of those. I think there were a handful, actually, when negotiations started for our organization. Everyone else across the public service had settled within that mandate. That's why we were told we had to remain within that mandate.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. I've no doubt that we'll come back to this line of questioning, Mr. Desjarlais.

Mr. Kram, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

I would like to follow up on the OAG's return-to-work policies and work-from-home policies.

Ms. Hogan, I believe you said that the employees in the Office of the Auditor General are working in the office at least thirty-seven and a half hours per month. Is that correct?

[Karen Hogan]

That is correct. We adopted a hybrid policy back in 2021. We informed our employees and gave them time to get all their personal affairs in line. The intention is to come in a minimum of that in a month. That could include going in to an audit entity or coming in to the office to collaborate and innovate with your teams.

The whole point is to do it purposefully and not just come in on a consistent day. It's to come in and do something with your team—to collaborate, increase our culture and bring back the sense of camaraderie across the organization that you lose by sitting across from each other on a TV screen.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

In recent weeks and months, we've seen a push to bring back other federal government employees to work more and more in the office. As we have more and more federal government employees returning to work in person, are we going to see the Office of the Auditor General's employees mirror that return to work as well?

[Karen Hogan]

We aren't following the minimum two to three days per week, but if more public servants are downtown or in the office buildings and we are auditing them, chances are we will be there more often as well. We really are driven by the clients whom we serve, but there are some times when you can be really efficient from home as well. We're giving our staff that flexibility.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I would like to turn to some of the audits that you have planned for the upcoming year.

I see that you have four audits planned for the territorial governments. I will admit that I wasn't aware that your office audited the territorial governments. Could you elaborate a bit on what you have in store for the audits of the territories?

[Karen Hogan]

My office is also the Auditor General for the three territories, which means that we audit the public accounts of each territory as well as all the territorial corporations across the three territories. Then we try to provide at least one performance audit a year. This year we have two in one territory, but it was a very well-informed decision made with the legislature there.

Our intention is to table vaccine reports in both Yukon and Nunavut. We thought that it was a good continuation off the federal vaccine audit so that we would be able to see the actual rollout to shots in arms across two territories to help inform any future mass inoculation responses that might be needed to future pandemics.

We have an audit in Nunavut on child and family services. It's the third time that we're going into look at that department in Nunavut. We will also have an audit that was requested by the legislature in Northwest Territories on the Stanton Territorial Hospital renewal project.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Do the territorial governments have their own public accounts committees that review your audits, or will that be done by this committee here?

[Karen Hogan]

No, I report to those three legislatures and table my work in their legislature, and they hold hearings similar to your hearings. Although sometimes they last a full day and sometimes two days on one report, it is very similar there. It's not the federal public accounts committee that studies that work.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

I read that 80% of the reports that were presented to Parliament in the 2021-22 fiscal year were reviewed by parliamentary committees, and 100% of the ones tabled to this public accounts committee were reviewed.

Can you give us an idea of what audits and reports you produce that are reviewed by other committees besides public accounts?

[Karen Hogan]

The work of the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development is referred to the environment committee. They don't regularly study all of his reports in the way that the public accounts committee would study the reports that are issued under my banner, but, as you know, the commissioner's work is really work out of my office. He does that work on my behalf, and this committee has, I'm very happy to see, studied some of his work, so that kind of report would not be studied by anyone.

Some of the information under the net zero act, as well some of the extra mandates that the commissioner has, are referred to the environment committee, and they may not study them. Other committees in the House and the Senate study our work. I'm really happy to see the increase in committees looking at the work of our office.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Kram. That's time.

Ms. Yip, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Often the focus of the OAG is on audits and reports. I would just like to highlight and thank you for your work on developing the legislative audit methodology and the accounting and audit standards, as well as contributing to public sector auditing internationally. We don't always think of you in that role, and I think it's important, especially since we have such a strong public accounts tradition and foundation here.

You remarked that one of the ways you assess the impact of your performance audit work is through the level of parliamentary engagement with your reports. There has certainly been a lot of work done. How would you recommend that we keep that momentum going?

[Karen Hogan]

That's a good question. I could go on for a while, I think, with an answer. I guess I would like to talk a little bit about standard setting, both domestically and internationally, since you mentioned some of that.

Many members of my office sit on standard-setting boards, as do I. I think it is important to give back to standard setting and to encourage more accountable governments. We're seeing a lot of activity right now around sustainability reporting. Many from within my office are playing an important role in trying to ensure that this happens.

When it comes to engagement, this committee is studying all of the reports I provide and making their way through them. Although they might not get to all of them at the time they are issued, it is a great first step, and I am very happy to see other committees doing that as well. However, I think it's then about the continued focus and the follow-up from the committees' reports and recommendations and making sure you follow up on previous public accounts committees' recommendations and not forget about those. I think it's that sustained focus on holding departments accountable that will hopefully drive change. In fact, this committee has done that a few times: bringing back departments to talk about the actions they took months after they were here for the first time. That's a huge way of ensuring that we continue to stay focused on outcomes.

The only other thing I would say is that, as I mentioned in my opening statements, we have started an online interactive database where we follow up on past audits and past measures. Looking at that and using it to follow up with departments could also help inform some of the questions that this committee or other committees might be be able to ask.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I think that would certainly inform Canadians across the country on the work you do as well as our work on the committee. That follow-up is so important. They can see that the report ended but there is still more work to be done. I'm glad that's there.

Do you have any statistics on the number of Canadians who access your website? You do such good work. I just want to make sure that Canadians know about the website and where to find information on how government is held to account.

[Karen Hogan]

We do track visits to our website. We do track the reposting and so on of posts about our audit work on social media. I don't have that handy. I don't think we expected that question, so we didn't come with that information. If you are interested in those kinds of statistics, we would be more than happy to provide them to the committee.

We're definitely seeing an increase as we turn more to data visualization. We're seeing a lot more time spent on the charts or the infographics that we develop with our work, rather than seeing someone read the long-form report. I think it depends on people's focus and the usefulness for Canadians as they access our website.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I'd like to see those statistics, if you have them. I also find the infographics and the report “at a glance” very helpful.

Are there any reports that you believe are particularly important that have been tabled but not reviewed?

[Karen Hogan]

Most recently, I would say, the rural connectivity report is one that is important. It would be great to see the committee study it at some point in time, because it is an important commitment.

As we saw throughout the pandemic, in order to ensure that people can engage in the digital economy or access health care or schooling online, they need good, strong, stable, reliable and affordable Internet access. Many living in rural and remote communities, including indigenous communities, just don't have that access. I would really like to see the committee study that report in particular.

As I say, I'm always pleased if you study all of them, but if you had to pick, that's one that I would like to see studied.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I'd like to follow up. I seem to recall there was a comment on diversity at the management level at the OAG. Has that improved?

[Karen Hogan]

We have made many strides across the organization in meeting our employment equity targets. We see those really as the minimum expectations, and we strive to exceed them.

We have made improvements in our indigenous representation, but we still have a lot of work left to do. In management, we are making improvements, but until you have a population of almost five in a visible minority category, you don't get to talk about it in a public way. However, we haven't lost focus on making that improvement across the organization.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. That is time.

Once again, Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Ms. Hogan, can you tell me what changes might be made to the act?