Public Accounts Committee on June 15th, 2023

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

—in terms of their politics and the like.

We've seen this happen with other organizations before, where issues have become politicized to the point where they have led to if not the outright end of an organization that's done good work, something very close to it, something approximating just that. Do you worry about the Trudeau Foundation ceasing its operations, or if not ceasing its operations, being debilitated in terms of its ability to carry out the work it has done in the past? I know that the students they have been assisting certainly must look at all of this with enormous regret and worry.

Is this something that you would be concerned about and perhaps even caution parliamentarians to tread carefully on? There is responsibility here that extends well beyond politics, and it does impact the lives of students that are set to do some extraordinary things.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

It's not my place to tell parliamentarians how to their job. However, let me do that anyway.

I think this a serious issue.

I was not involved in the admission process to the fellowships or scholarships, although I was involved in the admission process of Action Canada at one point for a couple of years. What I worry about with the reputation that is being built now around the Trudeau Foundation is that they won't get the applications of the very best. It was very difficult for applicants to get a Trudeau fellowship or scholarship, and I think it's a real danger that the standard will be lowered, because the best will go elsewhere.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Cappe, thank you for being with us today.

I would like to begin by correcting the record about something which I do not think was clear enough during your presentation. It is Ms. Robillard, then President of the Treasury Board, who, seconded by Mr. Goodale, tabled the endowment of the Trudeau Foundation on March 19, 2002, through the appropriations. So that is when it was voted on in the House.

Now, I am curious about the contract that you mentioned was signed in 2004. Apparently, the foundation was in fact officially created with this endowment in 2002.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I am not the expert and I do not have all the documents with me. If I understand well, the government made a commitment in March 2002 to transfer the funds. However, I believe the current agreement was signed in 2004, but I am not sure.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay.

Very briefly, because my time is limited, could you tell me what role the Privy Council played in the creation of the foundation in 2001?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

It was to help the cabinet make a decision.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay.

To your knowledge, who was involved in lobbying for the creation of the foundation?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

It is a secret that I would not be allowed to disclose but I do not remember who it was anyway. However I am sure that the cabinet consulted one of its committees before it confirmed the decision.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay.

Could you tell me more about that? The memory loss is unfortunate, but it would be very helpful to this committee if you could remember somewhat who was present during the creation of the foundation.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

It has been 21 years, so I apologize for not remembering. From what I recall, the process was conducted by Canadian Heritage, then reviewed by the government and cabinet, and then confirmed by a committee. I may get mixed up between Canadian Heritage and Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, because in the end, it was the latter department that transferred the funds to the foundation.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay. During the years you were the Clerk of the Privy Council, were you involved in the creation of other foundations like this one?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I was not involved in the creation of those kinds of foundations, but when we were working on the annual budgets, there were always payments to such foundations.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay. To your knowledge, did any other foundation have a name that was obviously related to a political party?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

No.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

So—

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

If I may interrupt, I remember another foundation, which was in the name of former Governor General Adrienne Clarkson.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Yes, but it is not affiliated with a political party.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

No, not at all.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay. As far as you know, in addition to being a foundation whose name is affiliated with a political party, it is the only foundation of this kind that has received an endowment from the government.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

Without going there, I must confirm to you that the Canadian Alliance, then the official opposition, supported Minister Allan Rock's proposal as well as the endowment of $125 million.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I read in the archives that, during the vote on the supplementary estimates on March 19, 2002, the Bloc Québécois, the Canadian Alliance and the Progressive Conservative Party voted against providing this $125 million fund, which also contradicts what my colleague said.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I have the quote from Mr. John Reynolds, who was the interim leader of the Canadian Alliance at the time. He supported the involvement of Mr. Sacha Trudeau and the creation of this kind of recognition of the former prime minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

The time is up, thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais is joining us virtually as well.

You have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Cappe, for being with us today.

I want to follow up on some of my questions to other witnesses who I'm sure you might be familiar with. It's trying to find this kind of unique problem that Parliament is in, that Canadians are in, and that our electoral process is in. It's this perception that it's been influenced in particular, for example, by the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation's connection with the Prime Minister by way of a donation.

That public perception, of course, regardless of how true those things are, is out there. When I joined colleagues in Parliament to vote for a public inquiry, it was to make more certain to Canadians that we take this seriously and that there would be some kind of light shed on this. I take your point that we need to hold the government and direct those questions to the government more appropriately. I understand your comments on that.

As someone of your esteem, it's also important to try to find ways to utilize this time to see what your thoughts might be in relation to a public inquiry, which is something that I have been steadfast in trying to pursue and is something that I think, in the comments of Mr. Rosenberg, is something that political parties will have to decide. I also think that you, as a member of the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation in the past and a high-ranking civil servant, take these issues seriously as well.

Understanding those things, do you think a public inquiry is important, especially from your previous service as a high-ranking civil servant? Do you think it would have a benefit for Canadians to actually ensure that we put some sunlight on this issue?