Public Accounts Committee on June 15th, 2023

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Cappe.

You mentioned public servants. It's National Public Service Week, so I want to take a moment to thank you for your service to Canadians and to thank all of our public servants.

Mr. Cappe, with your wealth of experience in the Canadian public service, I want to know if you have any advice that you would provide to parliamentarians regarding how best to protect elections and Canadians from foreign interference, especially in your previous roles.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I'm tempted to say that if I did know, I wouldn't tell you. I'd create a company to do it.

That's a big question, and I don't really have a simple answer. However, I do think this is a fundamentally important question about the future of democracy and in particular, democracy in Canada.

That's why if there's a disagreement—and I don't think there is—between me and Mr. Desjarlais, it's really over this point about being forward-looking. I think it's important for Parliament.... I don't know, I think it's probably the procedure committee, or public accounts, or ethics, where you're all looking at the Trudeau Foundation. I would hope that you're looking at how to protect the integrity of our elections. It's fundamentally important.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you for that information.

Mr. Cappe, you proudly mentioned that you mentored two Ph.D. graduates. I want to hear more in terms of your belief in the work of the foundation and why it's important for Canadian researchers.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

When it was created, Mr. Rock, as the responsible minister, characterized it as analogous to the Canadian Rhodes scholarship. I don't think it has gotten to that level yet, but on the other hand, it is a big whack of money. It allows the Ph.D. students to do research that they wouldn't otherwise be funded for.

Let's put this in context. The granting councils, like NSERC, SSHRC and the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, CIHR, do a lot of funding. They are very well endowed to do a lot of funding, although not well endowed enough, I would say, in my current capacity.

I just bumped into a former teaching assistant of mine yesterday who's doing a SSHRC grant where he got $5 million to do research on this question of polarization and the integrity of elections. It's relevant, Mr. Sidhu, to your questions.

We need to have that money coming from the granting councils. It is incredibly valuable to have independent funding that comes from other sources. These foundations, whether it's the Ivey Foundation, the McConnell Foundation, or the Kahanoff foundation—there are many—are great sources for promoting independent research by very good Canadians.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Really quickly, we've heard from previous witnesses at this committee about the foundation and its important work. Many of them firmly believe that the foundation is completely non-partisan. Is that something that you also believe?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

Very much so.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

I'll just thank the witness, once again, for his time today.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

I have some informal agreement. I'm going to try to direct things. If anyone disagrees, they're welcome to seek clarification.

Mr. McCauley, you have the floor and I understand you want to give your time to the Bloc colleague.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Kram.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to come back to you, Mr. Kram. I do have that.

Madam Sinclair-Desgagné, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. McCauley.

Mr. Cappe, you just named the McConnell Foundation, but there are obviously many others, such as the Fondation Marcelle-et-Jean-Coutu and the Molson Foundation. All of these foundations have an important role, and they are all named after someone.

However, unlike these foundations, the Trudeau foundation has not received a single penny from the Trudeau family and is not a foundation. We gave public funds, taxpayer money, to a foundation that bears the name of a former prime minister. There is already a major difference there. The objectives may be noble, but there is nevertheless a major difference.

I would like to respond to your comment about the Institute for Research on Public Policy. If this institute works and has a role in promoting research in society, why did the government choose to transfer the amount of $125 million to a private foundation that bears the name of a former prime minister rather than to the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council or other institutions that already existed?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

We go back to the purpose of the foundation or the purpose of its creation. It was a tribute to the former prime minister. It would have been a bit odd if it had not been named after him.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

If the family wanted to recognize the work of this individual, why did they not create the foundation themselves with their own money, instead of asking the public to fund a private foundation?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I do not think there was a request from the family. It was a government decision.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

The Trudeau family is very involved in the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation. You named some of its members earlier, including Alexandre Trudeau. So there are important linkages. These family members sit on the board of directors. They are very involved, but they have not invested a penny and they have asked the government to provide the money to honour their father. There is something wrong with that, to say the least.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

It was Mr. Roy Heenan, the first chair of the board of directors, who was involved in the process. I imagine he created that kind of governance.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Who did you appoint? I misheard.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I appointed Roy Heenan, the founding lawyer for Heenan Blaikie. He was the first chair of the foundation's board of directors.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Was he one of the people who lobbied at the beginning to create this foundation?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I knew Mr. Heenan at the time, but I do not know whether he made any requests to the government.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

At the beginning, when I asked you who made the requests, you told me that the information was confidential. Then you changed your mind and said that, in the end, you did not remember that information.

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

No. It was Prime Minister Chrétien who started the process of paying tribute to Mr. Trudeau.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Okay. So your memory came back while your food was cooking. Good.

I do not know whether you have seen this in the newspapers, but we learned that the Trudeau Foundation has not complied with certain legal provisions, particularly the percentage of donations required by the Canada Revenue Agency for the foundation to maintain its charitable status. For four of the past five years, the Trudeau Foundation has not met the legal requirements applied by the CRA in this regard.

When we look at these kinds of things, at the origin of the Trudeau Foundation and its political affiliations, is there not an apparent preferential treatment in the way the foundation operates?

[Prof. Mel Cappe]

I have no knowledge of what they did. I have to say that when I was the CEO of the Institute for Research on Public Policy or the chair of the board of directors of Canadian Blood Services, we had obligations under the Canada Not-for-profit Corporations Act, and we met those obligations.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

You say that you met those obligations. Are you surprised that the Trudeau Foundation has not met its obligations in four of the last five years?