Public Safety Committee on April 19th, 2007

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes. I've no problem with that.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you very much.

So everybody who is involved in this program throughout the RCMP would be aware of this policy and would have to follow it through?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

That's correct.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I've seen the 2005-06 witness protection program annual report.

Mr. Ogden, you said the next one is coming this spring or is being prepared now.

[C/Supt Derek R. Ogden]

The next one should be available, I believe, by the fall of this year. I asked about that, and I think that's generally the timetable.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

You said you were going to change some more information and separate the financial information about costs, but are there any other anticipated format changes?

[C/Supt Derek R. Ogden]

We're going to make a few changes, because it's not clear when you read the report, if you don't work in that field every day, what we mean by the persons from the other agencies and which ones we protect. I know that when I started the job, there were a number of different columns, and I had to continue to go back and ask what things meant, so I assume that if I have questions then other people will too. So we're going to try to make it just a little bit clearer.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you very much.

Year by year, the funding has gone up and down for this, and quite substantially in some years. Generally, do you want to give an explanation of why that would occur?

[C/Supt Derek R. Ogden]

The funding would change depending on what the requirements were around the witnesses we move. We may move witnesses who have had training and certificates in one certain area, and then once we move them and they assume their new identity, all that's lost, so we have to completely retrain them. They're starting from square one. They're starting a brand new life. So in some cases we may make agreements and say, okay, we'll agree to do this much training with you; we'll agree to make sure you're in a household that is similar to the one we took you out of, so that may be the type of house we buy for them, and the type of vehicle they drove before may be similar to the one they drive in the future, that type of thing.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

There is the matter as well, of course, of the number of people who are admitted in and the number of people in their family and friends or family who would need relocation as well.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Are there any arrangements made with international criminal courts? You've talked about other countries. I'd like to have an idea of how many other countries, and whether we have some arrangements with international criminal courts or other organizations of that nature.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

We've had agreements with international criminal courts as well as countries.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

In other jurisdictions, there is some disclosure at some point in time by the agency itself with respect to their witness protection. Could you explain that, for example, in the United States in some of their programs, Mr. Bird?

[David Bird]

I'm afraid I really don't really quite follow the question. You're asking--

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I'm talking about when there's a decision made to disclose information because of some activity of the individual inside the witness protection program.

[C/Supt Derek R. Ogden]

I understand that's the case, but I don't have first-hand knowledge to say that in some areas this is what their policy is. But I do agree that is the case in some areas.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Okay. Maybe I'll try our Justice policy person, our senior legal counsel. Mr. Bartlett, I know you have much experience and—

[William Bartlett, Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice Canada]

My understanding is that it occurs, yes, but I don't think there's a clear policy on it.

When I spoke to experts in the United States who were involved in this, they indicated that generally they have a lot of flexibility. In fact, they find that the Canadian program is much more structured in terms of legislation and policy. They've indicated to me that they have a great deal more flexibility in how they operate.

So I believe it does occur, but I can't tell you that there is any particular policy in regard to this or what that policy might be. My indication is that they don't generally operate pursuant to that kind of firm policy; rather, they have a great deal of flexibility.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

These are five-minute rounds. Your time is up.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Okay, I'll take another five-minute round in a couple of minutes, then.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you for your presentations.

My question concerns the costs. You can't seem to give us an exact number, since costs vary depending on the person entering the program. However, can you tell me what the total program costs were for 2005? Can you disclose the costs for past years?

[Comm. adj. Raf Souccar]

In 2006-2006, program costs totalled approximately $1.9 million. That was down slightly from the previous year, that is from 2004-2005, where costs totalled around $2.5 million.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

If we average out the cost for 2005 and for previous years, we always arrive at a figure of approximately $2 million or thereabouts. Do you have the figures for the five previous years?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

I have with me today the numbers for 2005-2006 and 2004-2005.