Public Safety Committee on April 19th, 2007

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

You talked in your opening remarks about people who voluntarily leave the program once they're in. Say they have a spouse in the program. Does that spouse continue with the protection once the original person under protection decides to leave?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

That's correct. They would. So if one party decides to leave, the other party would continue with the protection.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I've not read anything about the protocol for how the expenses for this witness protection plan happen. Is there a protocol for funds released in this program?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

The funds that are released are released in various stages, if you will. There are funds as awards, if you will, for assisting in an investigation, and then there are funds associated with the protection itself. Some funds may be paid directly for certain activities. Other funds may be paid to the protectee in installments, over a period of time, for a number of different expenses associated with the relocation.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

My question was about a protocol for how you disburse funds, whether it exists. There's no oversight outside the RCMP on this. Does the RCMP itself have a written protocol for how you deal with the funds inside the witness protection program?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

We would have policy in place, yes.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Who creates the policy?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

The RCMP creates the policy.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Is that policy the same everywhere across the country, or does it go case by case?

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

No, there's a standard policy that applies to all witness protection coordinators.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Okay.

The annual report of 2005-06 said there were three complaints or instances of civil litigation related to the program, and that's the same as the previous year's, I understand. Are these the same three cases carried over, or are they different cases?

Perhaps Justice could answer.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

I don't think they're different, but I'll leave it to Mr. Bird.

[David Bird]

Unfortunately, I don't have specifics on those three cases, so I won't be able to advise this committee where those are at.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

If you can't do that today, could you provide the information to the clerk with a written reply, hopefully not too long from now?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Yes, you can provide that to the committee if it's possible.

[David Bird]

We'll do our best to get the information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll have to end it there.

Monsieur Ménard, for seven minutes, please.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you for that excellent presentation, Commissioner Soucar. I see that the RCMP is very serious about this program which, at first glance, seems to be managed in a very professional, albeit very costly, manner.

Am I correct in assuming that this program targets very serious cases, that is when a person's testimony is needed in a case involving drug trafficking, organized crime or violent groups that are capable of retaliatory action? Important steps must be taken in such instances to protect these individuals and their familiars if they decide to co-operate with the court to secure convictions for members of major criminal organizations. The Witness Protection Program does not apply in the case of small street gangs.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Generally speaking, that's true, because of the high cost of operating the program. It is used for fairly serious cases in which criminal or terrorist organizations are involved. The program may be used in less serious cases, but because of the costs, we try to limit it to serious cases.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

However, the program was not designed to protect spouses who are afraid that their violent spouse might assault them or their children.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

Absolutely not.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

In essence, that's why we are here. This private member's bill was proposed by a no doubt well-intentioned member who was concerned about problems associated with spousal violence and who would like to see a similar type of program in place for women who are afraid their husbands will assault them or, perhaps for the handful of husbands who are afraid that their wives will assault them, although that's a fairly rare occurrence.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

There is another program called NIVA which helps people in these situations.

It's called NIVA, and it looks after situations of spousal assaults. I don't know very much about it, but it's outside the Witness Protection Program Act.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

You're saying then that the RCMP has a program in place to offer some measure of protection to women who are afraid of a violent spouse.

[A/Commr Raf Souccar]

This particular program is not managed by the RCMP or by a law enforcement agency. Unfortunately, I don't have any additional information about it for you.