Public Safety Committee on Jan. 30th, 2008

[Tom Smith]

Yes, I would.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

How about your wife and your mother?

[Tom Smith]

I can't speak for them, but I can tell you we have a lot of people who would subject themselves to that testing.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I didn't mention your mother-in-law, you will notice.

[Tom Smith]

Thank you.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

You have in your literature that a 60-pound person could absorb a taser shock and still be safe. How do you know that for sure? Did you expose that to children?

[Tom Smith]

No, when the original study was published and peer-reviewed in Pace, the journal of electrophysiology--I can't remember the exact title, but its acronym is PACE--they did an initial test when they looked at 60 pounds through 240 pounds and established a baseline safety margin, and that's what we're referencing in our material. That is the 60-pound animal that was done in that test.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

This was an animal, not a person.

[Tom Smith]

Correct, because we have not been able to get the ethics committee's--

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I understand. I don't want you to either.

I am wondering why in your promotional literature you would talk about 60 pounds. Does that not encourage people to think it might be applicable to children? Why ever would you put that in, even though it's a scientific fact? Why wouldn't you have thought this could be misinterpreted?

[Tom Smith]

Again, the policy and procedure is going to dictate the training. What we had to represent was the science that was done, and that just happened to be the weight of the smallest animal that was used in that particular study, so again it showed a minimum 15:1 safety margin.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Are you clear that a 60-pound animal could absorb such a shock?

[Tom Smith]

That was in that particular test, correct.

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Is that in your promotional material that it's a 60-pound animal, or is the implication that it's a 60-pound human?

[Tom Smith]

The implication is that it was a test done by PACE on the animals and that the smallest subject.... Again, that's the base model they use when they're doing cardiac study for pacemakers, defibrillators, and even the tasers. That was the baseline model that was used. It was that size, 60 pounds.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll go over to Mr. Brown now for the next round.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I want to thank our witnesses for coming today.

I know that in light of these high-profile deaths in Canada over the last while there is a great deal of public interest, and Canadians are keen to see the outcome of our study as well as the other studies in Canada. We're just getting into this now, and I haven't had a chance to review some of the outcomes. Obviously you've had studies in the United States.

Mr. Smith, maybe you could give us a general idea of what we will find in those studies when we do a little bit more research.

[Tom Smith]

Over 120 studies have been done to date. What we are seeing at this point is that they are generally safe, very effective tools. We haven't seen a scenario where they can repeatedly say that if you have scenario A, B, and C occur you're going to have a certain outcome.

I can tell you that here in Canada, in 16 of those incidents where it did go to six jurors and was peer-reviewed through the process of an inquest, the taser was not even mentioned as having contributed to or been a cause in any of those cases. There are still some new ones pending with the more recent incidents, and we have to rely on the medical researchers to be able to document that. It is certainly an emotional event that we are sympathetic to, but we have to rely on the science, and that's what this information here is providing.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

What I'm trying to get at is this. In studies similar to this, about the use and the policies and procedures in some of those other studies, what kinds of recommendations will we find?

[Tom Smith]

We haven't seen any recommendations in the medical studies other than--

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

No, I'm not talking about the medical studies. I'm talking about studies similar to what we're doing. There must have been some other ones done in the United States when, obviously, there have been some deaths.

[Tom Smith]

Like, for example, the International Association of Chiefs of Police. Thought leaders from all over the world came out with this. If you're going to put a taser program in place, here are the steps you should take in developing a policy, in developing good training. Mr. Palmer mentioned something that is a new subject now, recognizing some medical aspects. Instead of just a law enforcement call, it's also a medical call. So those things are evolving in recommendations that you will see. Make sure there's a policy, and make sure there's training and at least some beginning recognition now of some basic medical conditions that may require medical attention.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you.

I'll ask Mr. Palmer this question. In terms of studies that may have been done, have we seen any decrease in injuries to law enforcement when they do have those? I don't know how you would measure it, but you may have some studies or some information on how it may make it safer for our law enforcement officers.

[Steve Palmer]

That's one area we're going to be looking at in our study as well. Again, there are a few older studies out there and a couple of newer ones that do address this, not necessarily broadly but by individual police services.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Okay. I'll go back to Mr. Smith here for a second.

I noticed you're developing another taser. It's launched from a standard 12-gauge shotgun and will have a range of 20 metres, and you're expecting to have that this year. What sort of use do you see for that that would be different from the hand-held unit?