Evidence of meeting #13 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was taser.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Police Research Centre
We have RCMP representation on projects, but we are not part of the RCMP, no.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you.
In some of your answers, excited delirium syndrome came up. I've been doing some reading, both in my previous occupation and currently, with regard to excited delirium syndrome. The question was asked of, I believe, the psychiatric community, and they say it's not a recognized psychiatric condition. However, they do say there have been some studies into this so-called syndrome. Are you aware of that?
4:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Police Research Centre
Yes, very much so. I guess the National Association of Medical Examiners recognizes excited delirium syndrome as a cause of death, whereas medical practitioners, psychiatrists, and others have yet to recognize it--and they may not, because when they do a physical examination of somebody in a hospital, they have a whole range of other diagnoses they can use.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
In the absence of the use of the taser--let's say it was recommended that the taser not be used when a police officer believed they were dealing with a person who had excited delirium syndrome--what other method of constraint do you think would be appropriate to use to protect any innocent civilians or the police officers themselves?
4:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Police Research Centre
There's a variety of things, everything from conversation on. When that fails, when the individual is non-responsive or continues to be violent and is a hazard to himself or to others, then you have the option of pepper spray, which is a pain compliance device. If the individual does not react to pain, then you go to others. You can try to break an arm or a leg with a baton--a very violent, damaging weapon. Another technique is called the “polyester pileup”, where you'll have five or six police officers jumping on an individual and bringing that individual to the ground. This often ends in injuries to all concerned, the police officers and the subject.
There's no easy solution to that question on what are the response techniques. It varies, depending on what's available and on hand.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
And these are assessments that a police officer or law enforcement agent would have to make within seconds of arriving, or at least within a very short period of time. It would also depend on whether or not the person exhibiting excited delirium actually had a weapon or the potential of acquiring a weapon, in regard to all the circumstances.
I would like to go back to a couple of alternate methods of restraint, the last of course being the one we haven't talked about or that you didn't mention, the use of the metal baton or ASP, which most police officers are equipped with. To your knowledge, have there been any studies that reveal, when it is used, the numbers of injuries that would be sustained in its use? What would those injuries be, from the least to the greatest?
4:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Police Research Centre
I have seen some studies looking at that. It is very rare that an ASP or a metal baton is used without the incidence of injury, whereas with a taser it's not as common to have an injury when it's used.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
We haven't discussed the use of capsicum, or pepper spray. Are you aware of any circumstances where pepper spray would be used by police officers to little or no effect on the non-compliant person?
4:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Police Research Centre
I don't have any study to that effect. I have anecdotal information from discussions with police officers of cases in which it has been ineffective.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Would you also say that the use of pepper spray can be a negative to the police when it is used outdoors? In those very few milliseconds or seconds they have to determine their use of force methodology, they also have to determine which way the wind is blowing.
4:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Police Research Centre
Yes. There are situations where the victim of the pepper spray can be either the police officer or a fellow police officer.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
I guess I should say that would apply even indoors, where there is an air conditioner, a fan, or anything else.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
So the police officer, in a very few seconds, must determine whether to use the ultimate—their sidearm, the lethal weapon—or whether some alternate means of compliance can be used, everything from the ASP to capsicum.
Would you not agree with me that if you are going to use the ASP properly you have to be very close to the subject?
4:20 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Police Research Centre
Yes, you have to be within physical striking distance of the individual.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Your time is up.
I will have to end the first round of questioning. We will now go to five-minute rounds of questioning, beginning with Mr. Cullen, please.
January 30th, 2008 / 4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Palmer and Mr. Smith.
Many Canadians, this Canadian included, would have been working on the assumption that a taser would be used as a weapon of last resort before lethal force. But when I saw those video clips of what happened with Mr. Dziekanski at the Vancouver airport, I began to question that. I know there are a number of investigations going on, so you may not want to comment on that specific incident, but I found it quite shocking that four trained RCMP officers were not able to restrain this gentleman without using a taser.
What I am also hearing from Mr. Palmer and law enforcement generally and from Mr. Smith is that it is really meant to be an intermediate response, which I think puts a very different perspective on it.
I would like to come back to that, because I am a little confused about excited delirium syndrome. Mr. Smith, on your website—Taser's website—you refer to a term called “sudden in-custody death syndrome awareness”. Is that the same thing as excited delirium syndrome?
4:20 p.m.
Chairman, Taser International Inc.
I think they are different. Excited delirium syndrome is the symptoms of the individual; the sudden in-custody death scenario is an instance where.... Unfortunately, it has been around for years. It is the very tragic side of law enforcement. About 4,000 to 5,000 in-custody deaths occur in law enforcement annually in the United States and Canada. I think that is a different scenario. Not every one of those instances is excited delirium.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
On your website, if I have it correct, you say:
“Signs of Sudden In-Custody Death Syndrome include: extreme agitation, bizarre behavior, inappropriate nudity, imperviousness to pain, paranoia, exhaustive exertion, “superhuman” strength, hallucinations, sweating profusely, etc.”
To me that sounds a lot like excited delirium syndrome.
I'd like to pursue this a bit, because that is quite a different thing from someone using a taser as a last resort before lethal force. I'm wondering whether you could get to a point, if someone is in this excited state.... It seems to me there could be many circumstances when a law enforcement officer presented themselves in front of a person who's about to be arrested who could exhibit these signs. It seems to me that could be quite common. Then the taser might put them over the top. In other words, they're in this agitated state, they suddenly get tasered, and that causes other physiological responses that might cause a heart attack or something else.
I wonder whether either or both of you could comment on what I just said.
4:25 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Police Research Centre
One of the things we looked at in our 2005 study was the effects of acidosis, or the buildup of acids in the blood through exertion. That led to our recommendation of no more than three five-second cycles on an individual, so that you did not have that extensive buildup of acids in the blood during the restraint process.
4:25 p.m.
Chairman, Taser International Inc.
Again, we would take the perspective of nearly half a million people having been exposed in those same real-world situations by the law enforcement community. It's going to be used at a similar level to the OC spray or to the baton. Where there's going to be a physical confrontation between people, always there's inherent risk. That's typically where the taser—again it's one tool in the tool box—is being used in over 86% of the agencies that use our technology.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
But it seems to me that if a confrontation is going to result, that leads you to the thinking that it's a weapon of last resort. Yet what I'm hearing from Taser and from law enforcement is that if someone is in this agitated state of excited delirium, it's almost better to taser them, because they could be heading towards a heart attack on their own. It's better to taser them, get them calmed down, and get them to a hospital.
Is it used in circumstances like that?
4:25 p.m.
Chairman, Taser International Inc.
It has been used in circumstances like that, and some of the medical research is actually suggesting using the taser or any device to end that confrontation as quickly as you can, rather than allowing the person to continue down the path of physically exerting themselves literally to death. We have seen medical researchers recommend that the taser can stop that action and get that person into custody, and then, as Mr. Palmer recommended, get them to a medical facility or to medical personnel to assist them.