Let me start.... I'm trying to find a good way to start and to come at this. Perhaps I can start with what Susan Pollak said. She was here a few weeks ago. I think you asked the same question of her and she replied that CSIS does use information. Frankly, I'm tempted to say that there are four words that can provide a simple answer, and those four words are either “yes, but” or “no, but”, and the “yes, but” is, do we use information that comes from torture? And the answer is that we only do so if lives are at stake.
And there is a premise to that. The premise to that is, first of all, it happens rarely in the exchanges of information that we have. Second of all, information that may have been extracted by methods which are less than the kinds of methods we would like applied to people--citizens, dual citizens, whatever, whether citizens or not.... Normally, the recipient of that information doesn't know how that information was obtained.
So with those first two points--“happens rarely” and “don't necessarily know”--there's been a general answer, which is that every bit of information we get we attempt to assess in terms of its reliability, but in trying to get at this debate, one of the best discussions I've ever seen of this, and I don't know whether the committee's had a chance to read the House of Lords decision, the famous--at least for us famous--House of Lords decision in 2005 called, in shorthand, the torture decision, but that was dealing with their SIAC process. Their security--