Public Safety Committee on March 10th, 2009

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to our committee.

I suppose this is a question for the RCMP to answer, or Mr. MacKillop, if you will.

One of the concerns that Canadians have--and people are dying as a result of this failure, in my view--is the number of handguns in this country. We go to an elaborate extent to register firearms in this country, yet it seems that the border is a bit of a sieve for handguns coming into the country. In fact, a report of two years ago from the CBSA shows that the number of firearms seized at the border has actually steadily declined since 2001.

CTV has done a recent report in B.C. The RCMP indicates that roughly half the guns fuelling the gang war in British Columbia's lower mainland come from the U.S. There's a big concern. People are dying as a result of handguns being loose. Some of them are people involved in criminal activity, and often, unfortunately, we have, very sadly, innocent bystanders being killed as well.

What confidence can Canadians have that this problem's being seriously addressed?

[Barry MacKillop]

Thank you for the question.

Certainly it is a significant concern in terms of the number of firearms that end up on the streets in Canada that are used in gang violence and other types of violence. Through the CBCF, the firearms trafficking working group does take this issue very seriously. They participate in joint threat assessments, joint targeting, as well as joint training on both the Canada and U.S. sides, which is, as I said, simply one mechanism that our law enforcement agencies use in order to collaborate.

There is ongoing work between the RCMP and their colleagues in the States as well to target and address illegal firearms trafficking across the border. I'll let Mike talk to that in terms of some of the efforts that are under way in the RCMP. But certainly it is one of the standing subgroups at CBCF and it's an issue that is taken very seriously.

[Superintendent Warren Coons, Director, Integrated Border Enforcement Team, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

With respect to the issue of firearms, in terms of the IBET program and our coordination and cooperation, our purpose, as discussed in terms of the structure of the IBET program, is that we meet on a regular basis with the joint management teams, which are local law enforcement agencies. Anybody with an access to the border will be meeting and talking about common threats, the common operating picture along the border. This would include firearms, though we're not exclusively directed towards firearms; it crosses all commodities that can be smuggled across the border. But over the course of the past year we have had significant successes, notable successes, certainly, in the province of Quebec, in Atlantic Canada. When during our investigations the information arrives that there's a boat-between-the-ports type of smuggling activity, certainly it's a high-priority investigation for the IBET program. As I mentioned, we currently have ongoing investigations with respect to that.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

What we're hearing, though, is that the number of seizures is going down. Most of the seizures are from individual Americans who think they can carry their gun into Canada and don't even know the difference or don't declare, and what we see is kind of an after-the-fact report. Sergeant Tim Shields told CTV News in Vancouver: “We know that they have been smuggled when we find them in the hands of criminals, being used in a drive-by shooting or a homicide.” So it's after the fact that we find out they're smuggled.

What steps are being taken that are new to this game? Because the number has been going down over the years. The estimate, actually, of one person in the Canada Border Services Agency is that between 1% and 3% of illegal guns are being found. What are we not doing that we should be doing to ensure that this doesn't continue?

[Superintendent Joe Oliver, Co-Chair, Border Enforcement Group, Canada-United States Cross Border Crime Forum]

The important thing to highlight is the ongoing work between Canada and the United States in addressing the firearms smuggling, particularly under the umbrella of the Cross-Border Crime Forum.

With respect to some of the ongoing activities at the front line, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has placed three of their liaison officers here in Canada to support investigations of firearm trafficking. Protocols have been put in place to support the tracing of firearms in real time. And with that information.... Although there may be cases where firearms are seized post-crime, the importance of the intelligence is identifying those sources of the guns in the United States. And what occurs is that, concurrent with the Canadian investigation, the U.S. usually launches a collateral investigation for violations of their federal laws and to identify those sources of the firearms.

Last year at the Cross-Border Crime Forum, a hugely successful investigation identifying the links between activities that occurred at the border and inland, as well as the collateral investigations in the United States, profiled the extent to which good cooperation, information-sharing, and the use of ballistics identification equipment can bring success to some of these investigations.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

You referred to the Cross-Border Crime Forum. It's suggested in your remarks, Mr. MacKillop, on page 11, that in firearms trafficking, the RCMP and the ATF in the U.S. are currently working on “a possible update of the 2006 Cross-Border Firearms Trafficking Overview”. In light of the recent statements by the RCMP in British Columbia and the concerns the public has, why is it only a possible update? Why is it referred to as that? Is it something we're thinking about but not taking too seriously, or is it something we can count on you doing?

[Barry MacKillop]

No, it's not a reflection of whether we think it's serious; it's a reflection, in terms of pulling this together, of not knowing the timing of the meeting and whether we would in fact have the report updated and done in time for the meeting. But certainly the update and the work on it is currently under way.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Do you have any view...? I know you're not the Canada Border Services Agency, but you, and the RCMP in particular, talk about their responsibility for this international concern. Do you have any concerns about the lack of pickup of firearms at the border crossings? Do we need some enhanced searching or investigative procedures or methodology at the border crossing to ensure that...? There's some suggestion in some of the materials I've read that dogs are able to sniff out gunpowder in certain circumstances, and that helps. Is there any update of methodologies that can be implemented that would see greater seizures and fewer guns coming into Canada at the border crossings?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

There's time for a brief response.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Well, I have a very quick response, Mr. Harris. I believe your question should be directed to the Canada Border Services Agency. In terms of enforcement at the ports of entry themselves and the mechanisms and procedures they have there, we can't speak to that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Mr. MacKenzie, please.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

We all share concerns similar to those of Mr. Holland about people coming to Canada for the Olympics, in particular. But I think in a general sense, it's good for our economy--people who come to Canada for our culture, our shows, shopping, and so on.

He's illustrated one of the issues that we hear about in the western hemisphere travel initiative, which is that the Americans will need a passport to get back into the U.S. after the first of June. What will they need to get into Canada when the Americans implement their rules on their side? Will they need the same documents to get into Canada as they will need to get back home?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Mr. MacKenzie, my understanding is that it's a reciprocal arrangement with the U.S. Therefore, they're going to require passports to come into Canada, as well.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay. And those from other countries, beyond the Americans who may visit Canada, will come in with a passport.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Exactly, as they currently do.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay. So it's not going to be different--I guess that's the point--for Americans and Canadians and British subjects to go back and forth across our borders, whether they fly in or cross that American-Canadian border.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

No.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but I was reviewing a speech Secretary Napolitano made toward the end of February. She indicated that she understood the importance of the Olympics to the Americans and to Canada, and they're quite prepared to work with us to make sure the games are a success from the standpoint of visitors. Have you seen any change, or is it fair to say there is a willingness to work together?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Absolutely. The willingness to work together goes back many years. There is a concerted effort, if I may call it that, or a renewed effort since the announcement of the Olympics in 2010. A number of Canada-U.S. working groups have been created, looking specifically at some of the security issues surrounding the Olympics in 2010.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay.

Not long after she was appointed to her position, I know the secretary indicated she wanted a report on the northern border, and there was some concern she was somehow telegraphing her concern about the northern border. Have you heard of anything since then that would indicate other than she just wanted to be informed about the northern border in that report?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

That's the message we received, specifically that she was new to the issue of the northern border and was looking at getting the lie of the land and understanding what the issues were. That was the purpose of the report, and the RCMP contributed to that report.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay.

[Supt Warren Coons]

If I could just add to that, we work on a daily basis with our United States law enforcement colleagues in the same office here in RCMP headquarters, so we have a fairly good pipeline when major issues are about to break. I can assure you it is pretty much business as usual in terms of the relationships, and nothing has been indicated to us that causes us any concern that there will be any kind of escalation or major concern on the part of the U.S. with respect to border security.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You still have three and a half minutes.