Public Safety Committee on March 10th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Very quickly, Mr. Holland.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Just as a last question, is there anything more that you think we can do to sort of assuage the concerns of Canadians that information would be used in a way with which we disagree? Given the fact that there have been problems in the past, what sorts of additional things do you think we could do?

[Supt Warren Coons]

Certainly in the IBET world, which is obviously vulnerable in the sense that we're working on a daily basis with our U.S. colleagues, we have instituted a protocol whereby the information that's shared is tracked. We have five co-locations—Assistant Commissioner Cabana referred to them in his opening remarks—where U.S. and Canadian law enforcement officers are working together on a daily basis, in the same office, exchanging intelligence.

All the information that crosses is tracked so that at any given time we can determine what information has changed hands and for what purpose. Obviously, it has to follow a protocol, and conditions have to be followed in order for that information to be shared. Once that threshold has been reached, the information is shared and then tracked. That's as good as we can possibly get in terms of controlling the information and determining how it's being used at the other end.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

For any sharing outside the norm, outside of what is regularly done, prior to any sharing occurring, there's a privacy impact analysis that is done to make sure it still respects the parameters of our legislation here in Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Ménard, do you have any questions?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Public safety is a very broad field, but I would like to move on to another area, namely civil security.

When natural disasters occur and broken equipment must be repaired or replaced, officials on both sides of the border exchange procedures. At least that's what happens in Eastern Canada because I have taken part in some of these exchanges. This is especially true when some areas are without power following a storm or hurricane. The state or province in which the outage occurred requires assistance in order to restore the power quickly. This happens quite often.

A number of agreements have been worked out to avoid having to check workers' qualifications, for example, in such instances. I would imagine some similar arrangements apply when we send our tanker airplanes off to fight fires in the U.S., and so forth.

In such cases do people need a passport to travel? Are they asked to produce a passport? For example, if Hydro-Québec confirms that a natural disaster has cut power to a large portion of the state of Maine, we can quickly dispatch some linemen to provide assistance. In fact, Hydro-Québec employees must have obtained their passports in advance in case they are called abroad.

How do such agreements work?

[Barry MacKillop]

Unfortunately, because this is not my area of expertise, I can't really answer that question. However, I would imagine that in an emergency situation, agreements allow workers to cross over the border and to provide the requested assistance, without encountering too many problems at the border. It's really not my area of expertise.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

In other words, it's left to the good judgment of the customs agent. There is no set protocol in place.

[Barry MacKillop]

I'm not sure whether there is a protocol in place.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

We read in some of the briefing material provided to us that attendees at certain conferences expressed the view that borders were ill-adapted to contend with modern-day problems. Nevertheless, you have advanced some very good reasons for believing that they do serve a purpose. There is also the whole question of the cost and inconvenience to honest citizens.

To address this issue, we've come up with systems like Nexus that people who travel extensively can use. Is any thought being given to expand these measures? Do they help us achieve our objectives, that is allowing the free movement of persons who are not deemed to pose a threat? We have something similar here. We push a button and gain entry without having to identify ourselves.

Are you satisfied with using the system in place or are there some people in your organization who are thinking about possible ways of enhancing freedom of movement without increasing the threats posed by terrorism, firearms, drugs and so forth?

[Barry MacKillop]

I can assure you that we are not resting on our laurels. We constantly strive to improve things or to make changes, if necessary. We try to learn something every day and to look at best practices, to achieve a balance between security and the freedom of movement of goods and people. We're looking for solutions to achieve this balance as quickly as possible.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

So then, if I understand what you're saying, you're trying to enhance mobility, but you're not focusing on any one measure in particular.

[Barry MacKillop]

We're weighing available options and looking at procedures that we could adopt, but I can't say that the solution to all of our problems is right around the corner.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Perhaps Mr. Cabana would like to weigh in.

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

Actually, all I wanted to point out from the RCMP's perspective is that we need to make the distinction between the role and responsibility of CBSA and the RCMP on the border. In terms of facilitating the flow of people and goods, that's entirely a CBSA responsibility.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Mr. Harris, you indicated you have a question.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Cabana, like Mr. Oliphant, I'm a little unhappy with the responses to the concerns about firearms. You are the assistant commissioner for the federal and international operations directorate. In your remarks you said you were working to ensure the safety and security of Canadians and their institutions domestically and globally, and that

Border integrity falls under FIO and encompasses branches with expertise in investigating cross-border criminality and identifying threats to Canada’s national security along the shared land border and at major air and marine entry points.

The entry of prohibited weapons into the country, whether they be handguns or assault rifles or other weapons readily available in the U.S., seems to me to be an overriding concern, yet you're telling us to ask the Canadian Border Service when they come here.

Do you feel that measures are adequate? I'll give you an example. It's been suggested by one employee of the border service that Americans travelling through Canada to Alaska are permitted to take their guns if they declare them. Sometimes they declare as many as ten or more guns. Yet there's no system in place to find out whether these guns actually leave Canada once they come in.

Does your organization have any concerns about the methodologies used at the border, how easy it is for guns to get into the country, whether this kind of system is adequate, etc.? Or are you saying it's not your affair, that it's the Canadian Border Service?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

I'm not suggesting it's not my affair, as you stated, Mr. Harris, and that we are not concerned with the entry of any firearms in Canada. To the contrary, we're actually very concerned with the flow of firearms, as demonstrated with some of the efforts we have with CBSA and the ATF to try to stem the flow.

I'm suggesting that our focus is between the ports of entry. CBSA is responsible for the ports of entry. Firearms that are being reported at the ports of entry and processes surrounding the tracking of those firearms are a CBSA responsibility.

You're asking me to speak on the appropriateness of procedures that another agency has. I'm suggesting you should be directing those questions to the CBSA.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Can you say whether you're satisfied with border security as it affects firearms?

[A/Commr Mike Cabana]

I can tell you that I'm not satisfied with border security and I never will be. It goes back to a question made a few minutes ago in terms of whether we are basically just sitting and happy with what we have. I think, as a country, we need to pay attention to what's happening at the border and be always looking to better protect Canadian citizens. So am I happy? No. I never will be.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I have one more question. I guess it's for you, Mr. Cabana, or Mr. Coons.

In your discussion of the IBETs, you mentioned the core agencies being the RCMP and the CBSA. On the U.S. side, it's the U.S. Customs and Border Protection/Border Patrol, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and the U.S. Coast Guard.

I take it from your answer to Mr. Richards' question that you do have some maritime capability with the RCMP. Could you describe that, please, and could you let us know whether there's any coordination with the Canadian Coast Guard as well? Or do you do it on a go-alone basis? What kinds of capabilities do you have in the maritime world?

[Supt Warren Coons]

From an IBET perspective, yes, we have assets for the maritime environment, but most of those are close to shore. That's what we focus on primarily with our U.S. partners. In a maritime environment, on both the east and west coasts, as in the Great Lakes, there is greater coordination with the Canadian Coast Guard. In particular, we have marine security enforcement teams in the Great Lakes, on which RCMP officers are deployed and patrol with the Canadian Coast Guard during the months in which the waters are navigable.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

They are not listed here as an agency.

[Supt Warren Coons]

They are not, because the Canadian Coast Guard is not part of the IBET program.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.