Evidence of meeting #28 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fadden.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Roger Préfontaine
Richard Fadden  Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

12:40 p.m.

Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Richard Fadden

I don't think it was a question of right. The act specifies that we must disclose intelligence information to the government. I was making a general statement. I don't think it applies.

As I mentioned earlier, the general audience operates in this area of activity. I think they have understood what I gave them as an example of a concern--no more, no less.

I would have informed my minister and the Privy Council Office had I had real concerns and immediate concerns. But as I indicated earlier, such concerns did not exist then--and in truth, don't exist now.

12:40 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies

Mr. Payne.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. MacKenzie.

Thank you for coming today, Mr. Fadden and Mr. Ellis and Mr. Dunn. This is certainly an important opportunity to clear the decks on this information.

I think it's critical to draw a firm line between influence and corruption, and let's be clear what we're talking about there. You mentioned in your opening remarks a threat continuum ranging from open meetings with foreign and Canadian officials to years of contact in which a foreign actor may have convinced a Canadian official to adopt a position in which the Canadian interest is not necessarily front and centre. Indeed, the position may be even contrary to Canada's interests.

Without getting into specific details on how CSIS carries out its statutory mandate, can you describe how CSIS makes its evaluations along this continuum?

12:40 p.m.

Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Richard Fadden

I think you're asking me to do something that's very difficult. It's something we tend to do on a case-by-case basis. As I tried to suggest in my opening remarks, there really is a spectrum of activities that go from the totally innocuous to somebody who, because of a secret influence or a threat of some sort, changes his or her position. As you move towards the second part of that spectrum it becomes, I think, increasingly obvious that there is a problem.

If over the years it became obvious, for example, that somebody was receiving benefits and that these benefits were not generally known, that the individual was in contact on a regular basis with an agent of a foreign power, we would become concerned on two points: one, that foreign influence was being exercised; and two, we'd be concerned about the Canadian being subjected to the kind of pressure that's really not appropriate. So we would then open a file and start looking at it in more detail.

At some point, truthfully, it is a question of judgment within the service and interdepartmentally and eventually in the government whether you've passed that threshold you were talking about.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

How does CSIS constitute sufficient concern, and what should be forwarded to the appropriate authorities?

12:45 p.m.

Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Richard Fadden

Again, it's very hard to generalize, but if we find over the years that there has been secret pressure, secret influence, secret meetings.... The activity of the foreign power has to be clandestine. It has to be secret.

A diplomat operating out of a foreign embassy does not qualify in this instance. But if the influence, if the benefits, if the activity is clandestine, if we become aware of it and it operates over a number of years, if the individual concerned is operating in an area that would be of interest to that foreign power, we eventually would form a view as to whether or not there's a matter for concern. We would open a file and move it through the process I talked about a little bit earlier.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have?

12:45 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies

You have one minute.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Thank you.

We certainly know that CSIS is dedicated to the protection of Canada's national interests and the safety of Canadians. Certainly it's one of the most monitored agencies in the world.

You said there's merit in CSIS being more open about the threats to our national security, and yet what CSIS does is to prosecute an inherently secretive mandate. How do you reconcile these two seemingly irreconcilable differences?

12:45 p.m.

Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Richard Fadden

CSIS has to do in secret our investigations, our inquiries, our trade craft, the information we share with foreign countries. These have to be done in secret. And I think over the years CSIS has demonstrated that it can do these things very effectively. That does not mean, though, that we cannot talk in general terms, as can the government, about threats to the security of Canada, be they espionage or terrorism or what not. So yes, there's a line that has to be drawn there, and sometimes it's not easy to know exactly where to draw it. The larger part of our activities and of our operations must remain secret, but that doesn't mean we can't talk in general about threats and the people we're dealing with.

12:45 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies

Monsieur Proulx and Monsieur Kania--

12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

12:45 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies

State your point of order, please.

12:45 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Mr. Chair, we have been questioning Mr. Fadden for roughly 1 hour and 45 minutes. I think we have done the rounds repeatedly. I would like to propose to my colleagues, in a friendly manner.... I want to move a censure motion with respect to Mr. Fadden and ask the Prime Minister for his resignation. That is the motion I am proposing in a friendly manner.

12:45 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies

Mr. MacKenzie.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON

Mr. Chair, I think the motion is out of order.

This committee was asked to come today to talk to Mr. Fadden, to receive some responses. With all due respect to my friend from the Bloc, she's jumped to a conclusion without having all of the facts, and maybe without even considering the information that was delivered to the committee today. I believe, as I said, that her motion is out of order simply because this committee wasn't brought forward today to deal with motions. As a matter of fact, there was discussion among many of the parties that there would be no motions at this committee.

Mr. Chair, I think you would be right in ruling it out of order.

12:45 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies

If I could have the indulgence of the committee, I will confer with the clerk. It's my understanding that points of order are not actually debatable. So I will just consult with the clerk for a moment.

Following consultation with the clerk, I'm going to rule the point of order out of order. It's my opinion that the point of order is a substantive one. And of course, by the rules of this committee, a substantive motion requires 48 hours' notice. But I will regard Madame Mourani's notice right now as constituting that notice. If she will put it in writing to the committee, then the committee will have filed with it a notice that will be dealt with at the next sitting of the committee.

12:50 p.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Thank you.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

So now we get our full five minutes. Is that correct?

12:50 p.m.

NDP

The Vice-Chair NDP Don Davies

Yes, you will have your five minutes.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, the CSIS director repeated today that foreign influence remains a concern and a threat. Obviously, it's up to the Prime Minister and Minister Toews to clear the air by addressing this.

Mr. Fadden, the U.S. Department of Justice recently laid charges against three Russian spies who were arrested last week—and a fourth is still on the run—and it said that the individuals were posing as Canadians, so as to cover their tracks as part of the espionage work they were carrying out in the U.S.

Was CSIS aware of that, Mr. Fadden?

12:50 p.m.

Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Richard Fadden

Not before the U.S. justice department issued the announcement.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

D'accord.

How concerned should Canadians be that foreign spies might be posing as Canadians to undertake espionage activities?

12:50 p.m.

Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

Richard Fadden

I think it's something we should be concerned about. It's happened over the years. The Canadian federal government and Canadian provinces have made it more and more difficult for such individuals to acquire Canadian identities, but it is still possible.

I think one of the reasons that Canada is so attractive is that we're so well viewed around the world and our passports are accepted virtually anywhere. So there is a level of concern.

12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Thank you.