Evidence of meeting #35 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elcock.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you. I'll check the book, but as far as I know, Monday morning quarterback is not unparliamentary. I think we all understand what the reference means. It means looking back--
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Thank you. There are other terms you can use instead of that.
The complexity of trying to arrange housing and safe accommodation for 10,000 people must be quite staggering. I just want you to elaborate a little more on that. Again, the Monday morning quarterbacks on the other side struggled to get one hundred and some people to vote the right way. Can you explain to the committee and for Canadians how onerous a task it is to try to lay the infrastructure and housing for 10,000 people?
5:05 p.m.
Special Advisor, Privy Council Office
I think, Mr. Chairman, Chief Superintendent MacNeil may be able to give you a better answer than I can. The reality is that it is a huge challenge. I believe in the case of Seoul, for example, they expect to have over 50,000 security folks. I think they're going to put them in tents, but I'm not sure what their plans are.
It is a very difficult challenge. It was a challenge particularly for the G-8 because it is a more rural area and there isn't sufficient hotel or motel infrastructure. In the case of Kananaskis, there was, and a temporary site wasn't built. But in the case of the G-8, obviously a temporary accommodation facility was required. In Toronto, there was infrastructure that could be used to put RCMP officers and other police force members into.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Thank you.
This question is for Mr. MacNeil.
With 20,000 security personnel who were tasked with the safety and security of the protestors, as well as the people attending the G-20, you've made your points that other than a few broken windows and a few police cars being damaged, that is really the extent of the damage from the G-8 and G-20. Certainly, from your perspective, that must be a huge success, as there were no major injuries and certainly no loss of life. I wonder if you could comment on that.
5:10 p.m.
C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil
I agree. As I stated earlier, and I stand by it, the security operation was a huge success. We were very fortunate that there weren't serious injuries. When you have that many people on the street, the potential is always there. As you know, in major events such as this in the past, there have even been deaths. So I was very pleased with that aspect of the summits.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Has there been frustration among your members about the undue criticism from politicians? Is there frustration there?
5:10 p.m.
C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil
No. Members of the RCMP and the members of the Integrated Security Unit are very professional people. They're willing to listen to anyone's complaints. We have systems in place to accept complaints. If you come to our detachments across Canada, you'll see a form you can fill out to make a complaint if you think there is anything that has been done that the police shouldn't have done. We're public servants and we're used to scrutiny, but we're also very professional, and we all feel good about the job we did and we're proud of what we did. I'm very proud of the members of the Integrated Security Unit.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
We're not getting any answers on accountability. There seem to be a lot of fingers pointing in other directions. Let me try on costs.
If I could, Mr. MacNeil, there are huge cost figures there, and the reason we're told why we can't get at specific details is that bills are still coming in. The frustrating thing here is that the things for which we do have bills...it doesn't seem like the bills are coming in; it's just that the details are not forthcoming. One example was the glow sticks. You have provided some information saying they were used by the Canadian Forces, and yet the minister said, and even Mr. Elcock said, it was inappropriate--those were the exact words--to use the Canadian Forces for these sorts of things.
Let me continue down the list. We're talking about high-end furniture, $315,000; rooms and food at Yorkville's Park Hyatt Hotel, $85,000. One bill alone for snacks at the Pickle Barrel was $17,275.
What are the reasons we can't get the breakdown of this? Can you understand when more than $1 billion was spent that Canadians would want additional information?
5:10 p.m.
C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil
Yes, I understand that, and that's one of the reasons I'm happy to be here today to try to explain some of the numbers I've heard. When it comes to the--
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON
Just to be clear, I don't want you today to go through a roll call. It's been four months of an archeological expedition to try to get these receipts pulled out of the ground. All I'm saying is open it up. Let us see how this thing got to the price tag it's at. What really concerns me about it is there is a defence of it, saying this is what the cost is. We keep hearing that.
I have two questions, and then I will turn it over to Mr. Kania.
One, can you provide a breakdown of these costs, not just isolated one-offs that I'm talking about here, but anything you are not waiting for a bill for? I don't know what you'd be waiting for a bill for anyway.
The second comment is, how do you feel about those costs? Is this the new bar? Should we expect that every time Canada hosts the G-20, unlike every other country that hosts the G-20, these are the kinds of costs we should expect? Is this a new bar Canadians should expect going forward?
5:10 p.m.
C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil
Thank you.
I can answer the question, actually. The RCMP cost in this particular summit was $507 million. I will just explain as quickly as I can how we come to that cost.
If you picture, as I said earlier, all the sites, there are 40 sites involved in the G-8 and the G-20. What we do is send an operational team out to each site. They go to the site, they assess the site, and they do what's called a vulnerability risk assessment on the site. They come back to me and to our planning team and they say, this is what it's going to take to secure that site: x number of police officers, x amount of equipment. We take that amount and scrutinize it. We go over it and ask if it can be done for less, because we are, obviously, concerned with costs, but we're also concerned that--
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON
I don't mean to interrupt, but because time is limited, can you provide the costs?
5:15 p.m.
C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil
Yes, I can.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON
Is this the new bar? Should we expect these kinds of costs for summits going forward?
5:15 p.m.
C/Supt Alphonse MacNeil
I'll take the second question first, if I may.
I feel very confident that the costs in this case were justified. Based on the formula we use to secure every site, as far as RCMP costs go, we projected $507 million. We have spent, as of a month or so ago, $329 million of that $507 million.
On what we are waiting for, without getting into it too much, we have some MOUs with municipal partners that still have to come in--Toronto Police Service. But we're going to be able to sell some of the assets we purchased and recoup some money. So the number is fluctuating a little, and that's why we can't give you an exact number right now. But it was $329 million up to the end of August.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON
Okay, but I'm just saying to give us the costs you have and your estimates of the others. You would not have agreed to give a blank cheque. There would have been some estimate or some agreement around what those costs would be. Of course, you'd pay the bill later.
Mr. Kania.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Elcock, Madame Morin, and Chief Superintendent MacNeil, did any of you provide advice to the Minister of Public Safety or the Conservative government to split the summit between Huntsville and Toronto?
5:15 p.m.
Special Advisor, Privy Council Office
As I said, where the summit would be held was a Government of Canada decision. Advice was provided from a number of streams, one of which was security. The security advice in some cases was positive or negative on a specific site. But at the end of the day, the decision on what site was chosen, and whether it was one site or two sites, was a Government of Canada decision.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for your attendance here today and for the good job you do in protecting Canadians.
I'm always concerned when members opposite are overly critical of security and police forces, especially in a difficult time like policing the G-8 and G-20. So I join with my friend Mr. Lobb and the members on this side of the table in commending primarily Superintendent MacNeil, because he was the operations director of this operation, and all of the men and women under his command and from the other forces that were coordinated in that effort. I know it was a difficult job and I think he ought to be commended for his efforts.
I have a couple of questions. My friends on the opposite side of the table frequently find individuals who claim to have been aggrieved by some of those operations and the tactics of some of those people who may have been under your charge. But I suspect they were not under your charge, given the jurisdictional realities of that operation.
Superintendent MacNeil, are you aware of any complaints against members of the RCMP? Are there any files pending before the RCMP complaints commission?
