Public Safety Committee on Nov. 29th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right.

Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for being here today.

Commissioner Elliott, did you have any discussions with Deputy Chief Commissioner Souccar or former Assistant Commissioner McDonell about their attendance here today?

[Commr William Elliott]

No.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay.

Commissioner, there have been allegations about your management style being a challenge, at times, for the force. You yourself have acknowledged that while some challenges are inherent to the job and to your vision of where the force has to go--and I quote you--“there are some impediments that are personal to me”.

There have been allegations of there being an unhealthy level of tension in the force. I think the most pointed allegations were that you at times have been accused of being “verbally abusive” and “arrogant”--those are the quotes. I know you went down south for a management course. I'd like you to tell us, again, how much that cost the force.

Also, my question is, can you assure this committee and the rank-and-file RCMP officers that you are aware of some of the issues concerning your behaviour and that you're committed to changing that? Also, tell us what concrete measures you've taken to deal with your challenges, if you acknowledge that there are indeed some.

[Commr William Elliott]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Quite a number of questions have been asked, so let me try to address them all to the extent that I can remember them.

First of all, I am certainly aware that complaints were made and issues were raised with respect to my management style, for want of a better term. We have certainly, as a senior executive committee, talked about not only my style and how I conduct myself but how we can best work cohesively and cooperatively together. I am quite pleased with respect to the state of our relationships among the senior executive committee and the healthy level of discussion and debate.

With respect to reports in the media about my having attended a course with respect to interpersonal relationships, I wouldn't describe it as a course. It was part of a broader initiative. We had a number of individuals who we hired on contract to provide advice to us with respect to transformational change at the RCMP. One of those was from a company called Malandro and is a very well-known expert in this field. I spent two or three days in Colorado with Ms. Malandro and some of her colleagues. She also—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Commissioner, I'm sorry to interrupt. I have limited time. I asked how much it cost.

[Commr William Elliott]

I believe the figure was $44,000 Canadian.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

Commissioner, leadership is linked with management structure, and you yourself have made some significant changes in personnel and reporting responsibilities. Last week, you made some proposals to alter the way that upper-level RCMP management is structured, and I want to explore that with you for a minute.

You proposed--and I'm going to quote you, if this is accurate--“to modernize the force and to change how it is that we are structured, to be more independent with respect to the administration of the force from government...”. Since you clearly propose to put a buffer between you and government, can you tell us what problems or issues you may have experienced in dealing with government that may have caused you to suggest that change?

[Commr William Elliott]

First of all, I would point out that the change I have recommended is not a new idea. It was actually one of the recommendations of the task force on governance and cultural change in the RCMP, and it has been endorsed by the Reform Implementation Council.

Generally speaking, I would say that the suggestion behind that recommendation, as I understand it, and it's certainly my view, is that the current regime--which includes, for example, our having to go to Treasury Board multiple times a year for approvals, and also the fact that there are many policies adopted by the Treasury Board for government writ large--is not particularly responsive to a policing organization. Our desire is to have policies and oversight that are tailored to the realities of policing. Certainly we think that is a way to be more efficient.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

As upper-level RCMP management, have you ever encountered or heard of any of your predecessors encountering any political interference from the ministry or the minister in the operations of the RCMP?

[Commr William Elliott]

No.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

You also have commented, I think in your opening statements, on civilian oversight, particularly the complaints process against RCMP officers. You may know that many Canadians are calling for a civilian-administered process similar to the Ontario model so that police are not investigating police when there's a serious allegation.

I'd like to know your views. Do you agree with that? If so, when can Canadians expect that we can have such a process implemented in this country?

[Commr William Elliott]

Okay. Well, the last part of the question, Mr. Chairman, should really be directed to governments and not to me. As I indicated in my opening remarks, questions about governance of the RCMP and certainly questions about how complaints are dealt with.... The RCMP certainly has an interest, but we are not the decision-makers.

We're very supportive of independent investigations. We have gotten our own house in order by the adoption of our policy earlier this year on external investigations or review. That policy requires us to refer investigations of serious incidents to independent agencies where they exist. Unfortunately, they don't exist in every jurisdiction across the country, which is why we're also on record, as I said in my opening remarks, as urging governments to set up such independent agencies.

So if we could be completely relieved of the obligation—because it is an obligation—of investigations into our employees, I think that would be a good thing from the RCMP's perspective, and certainly from mine personally. We have not been relieved of that obligation universally, which is why we have in place the policy that we have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Elliott.

We'll move to Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank the panel for being here today.

Commissioner Elliott, you indicated the changes in governance. I would suggest to you that with the changes in governance--as municipal departments across Canada have--we wouldn't have a political body like this today, with you appearing before it for political reasons. I think that's the major significant difference that I would see.

I would also say, and you can respond to it, that policing is very much a paramilitary style of organization. Anybody who thinks that everybody is always thrilled with the guy at the top obviously hasn't lived in the organizations; that's just not the way they function. Frequently, people do have difficulty with people at the top. It doesn't mean that there's a problem; it means that it's a healthy organization that has and does tolerate that sort of dissent, but within the organization.

It's no different in policing than it is in private industry. Large companies go through the same kinds of things. So when we go through these kinds of things here, that's because there's a government body set up, as this one is here, I would suggest, as opposed to a civilian oversight that sees these things.

But to one of the deputy commissioners--perhaps Deputy Commissioner Nause--are you responsible for the grievance procedure within the organization now? Do I have the right person?

[D/Commr Al Nause]

No. Formerly, yes, I would have been, but with the reorganization of the structure, the professional integrity officer now oversees discipline and grievances.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Just extending that a little bit, has the force stayed constant in your time? Do different people end up in different positions for a variety of reasons—because of promotions, transfers, and professional development?

[D/Commr Al Nause]

I'm not sure I understand the question. But yes, there are different people who have been promoted into different positions.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

The organization is not static is what you mean--

[D/Commr Al Nause]

No, not at all.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

So because somebody's not doing the same job today that they did four months ago doesn't necessarily have any significance. It is as it is: the organization does change and it's not in a static position.

[D/Commr Al Nause]

No. That's exactly right. Generally speaking, in three to five years you can expect a move out of your position.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

And sometimes a lot less and sometimes a bit more.

[D/Commr Al Nause]

Exactly.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay.

Commissioner, this role that you're filling today is a huge role. It is a new one for you, I would say to anybody who's watching. Obviously, as I've said, the organization is paramilitary. Your background is not in the military and it's not in policing. It's a learning experience for the new commissioner and for the people who work with and under...?