Evidence of meeting #4 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inmates.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
Drugs in prison, okay.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
If we're going to try to wordsmith Madame Morin's question, what will be the effect of drugs in prison if we see an increased prison population? Working within the parameters of this question, how can we better serve those people coming in?
12:45 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
Ms. Morin, if there's an increase in the prison population, we would have to have the resources necessary to handle that new situation. The correctional officers or the institutional staff would need to be given the resources required. If there are 80 inmates in a range made to hold 40, that means that there would be two inmates to a cell. There would be twice as much work and twice as many responsibilities. It would lead to significant difficulties and would affect the morale of the inmates.
All these things, as Michel is telling me here, will have an impact on the identification of people involved in drugs. The entire information system will become 10 times more complicated. Of course, we'll need the corresponding resources.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Marie-Claude Morin NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
We also heard earlier about programs specifically for women and aboriginals. If possible, could you tell me more about the unique features of those programs? It would be of interest to our committee.
12:45 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
Are you talking about drug programs?
12:45 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
One thing that's certain is that drugs aren't linked to one group of people. The penitentiaries for women have drug programs, but it's handled a little differently. If you visit a penitentiary for women and a penitentiary for men, you'll see that it's not at all the same thing.
But there are women in the prisons for women who are dealing with criminal gangs. These behaviours are difficult to manage. We've been taught to deal with male and female inmates differently. In the union, we often say that we should be careful not to treat them too differently because when the problem involves drugs or gangs, it's the same basic problem whether it's a man or a woman involved. It's the same problem with intimidation of other inmates.
We need to take the time to think, to not make too big a distinction between them. At the same time, we shouldn't think that there's nothing for women. Nor can we say that this doesn't exist in prisons for women, that there are no problems. Hold on! We need to look at this together.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Marie-Claude Morin NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
So there are programs for women who are facing substance abuse problems in prison. And the programs are offered and adapted.
12:45 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
Yes.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
12:45 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
It's the same thing for aboriginals. We call these healing lodges for aboriginal inmates. They are in western Canada, including in Kwìkwèxwelhp and Willow Cree. There are also substance abuse programs.
Alcohol is also a big problem.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Marie-Claude Morin NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
So is it the same thing for the specific programs? Are they handled the same way? We know a little about the situations on the reservations. I simply wanted to check.
12:45 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
There are specific programs…
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
I'd like to join my colleagues in thanking you and your 18,000 workers across Canada for the work you do every day.
I want to note that you came here wearing your flak vest or whatever it's called. Obviously you have to go to work with these tools and measures that we've been talking about the whole time.
I want to ask you three brief questions to get a sense of what you and your workers truly think about what we are working on here, in terms of what has happened now, where we are now, and moving forward, and what we can do as a committee to assist you in your work to keep our communities safe.
I note some of the astounding numbers that Mr. Head gave us in the previous presentation. He mentioned that something like 80% of inmates arrive with serious substance abuse problems, with 50% of them indicating that this was a factor in the commission of their crime. Obviously, if they go into these programs, they are 45% less likely to return and 63% less likely to return with a new violent offence.
Would you agree with that? Has that been your experience?
12:50 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
I heard some numbers this morning. I'm not saying they're good, and I'm not saying they're not good. It's possible; can I say it like that?
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
I'd like to be very clear. Do your workers experience that with these programs it does help the inmates get better?
12:50 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
You know, you have to consider the level of the institution: maximum, medium, minimum. As I said at the beginning, yes, those tools are helping. Are we going to succeed to eliminate all of the drugs? Are we going to succeed so that nobody will ever have a problem with drugs? Are we--
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
Yes, but that wasn't my question. I'm just asking, is it better? Do you think these programs are good steps?
12:50 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
I think those tools help us to find more drugs, yes.
12:50 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
But it's not perfect.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
Of course not.
I note that a couple of years ago, we increased funding to these programs, at $122 million, and Mr. Head was saying another $47 million as well.
Have you noticed that the incidence of drugs, as he said, has gone down from 11% or 12% to now 7.5%? Is it better? Do we have measures now in place to make it better?
12:50 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
The measures we have in place now are tools, measures that will help us to be better. But I want to give you an example. We found $47,000 in drugs at Stony Mountain two weeks ago.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative