Evidence of meeting #4 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inmates.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:25 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
The answer is yes and no.
The problem with the substance abuse programs is that if the inmate transfers to a different institution, the program does not follow him.
Not every location has vocational training for inmates. We also have the situation of double-bunking in cells. Jobs are fewer and fewer and increasingly being reduced. Inmates are spending a lot of time in their cells. It's the revolving door syndrome There are programs, but they aren't always adapted in the same way from one place to another. It's a problem for the inmate who wants to get out.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Mallette, for being here.
I also want to express gratitude for the work that you and your colleagues do and the risk that this work involves. I'm sure you're under immense pressure and stress every day. Thank you for what you do.
You painted a pretty vivid picture for us of an inmate who comes in wanting to do well and then is pressured into helping in the trafficking of drugs. Really, it's the same outside, in many ways. People who are trafficking drugs sometimes are motivated by addiction, but a lot of times it's about the money. They want to make money. So whether it's on the outside, and they're trying to traffic drugs to our kids, or inside the prisons, where they're trafficking drugs to inmates who are trying to get over their addiction, it's often motivated by money.
We're debating right now Bill C-10, which talks about greater accountability and greater consequences for those kinds of activities. In your estimation—and we talked about this in regard to people smuggling in drugs—do you think that having greater consequences and greater accountability will be a part of the tools that will help deter this?
12:30 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
Maybe you're going to give me a chance to talk about a slogan I hear a lot, “tough on crime”. I hear that from the field. People are saying the new government wants to be tough on crime, right?
We accept the challenge to be tough on crime. I'm a correctional officer. Justice, it's in my mind. But tough on crime means being tough on criminals, too. Changing the law to bring us wider margins of manoeuvre to manage the population is going to be good. At the same time, we're going to have to give what goes with that. Managing the population, managing new rules, means we're going to have to review the number of correctional officers we have at the site. You're going to build more units. That's good news. Now we're facing a lot of double-bunking, and double-bunking is no good for anybody. It's not good for correctional officers, but it's not good for inmates, either. Two in a cell means a lot of stress for them and a lot of stress for us.
This is the first chance I've had to talk to the MPs in the committee about those things. You're going to see the media saying different things. People are going to say, “Ah, you're never satisfied. You're receiving more units, more jobs.” Let's talk about the stuff. We're passing the law, and now we're going to have to deal with new stuff, new laws. How are we going to apply that? Engage? Not engage? Maybe we're going to arrive at something. In any case, we want to be there.
I want to tell you something. We were in Ottawa this week, all week, for the Blood Samples Act. We want the Blood Samples Act. If an inmate is trying to throw feces at me, and he's using his blood as a weapon, please, can we know if he's sick or he's got something? Can we just know? We know that in your bill it's going to be criminal to do stuff like this. Please, we want that. We need it.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Mr. Mallette, you're asking the government to do some good things, and we may have to have you back for another piece of legislation. But we want to try to limit this discussion to the drugs and prisons.
We look forward to your coming back again. Mark my words.
Continue, Ms. Hoeppner.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Thank you.
You also referred to inmates putting pressure on you. You used the example of a mother bringing drugs in. As a mother, I can see you might feel sorrow or guilt, or whatever the pressure might be. But what about actual gang activity? Can you explain to us the relationship? Somebody who is in prison, you would think he would not be able to have influence outside of prison, but obviously he sometimes can. Can you explain how gang members, Hells Angels, are able to exert pressure outside of prison to tell people to bring drugs in?
12:30 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
It's going back to one thing. It's going back to the fact that a penitentiary is not closed to the public. They have the right to call. They have the right to call people outside.
12:30 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
They have a list. Do you know what tool they have? Okay, I have the name of Michelle on my list. Boom, I'm calling Michelle. Michelle is transferring my call to somebody else. With the technology we have now with the cellphone.... We're talking about contraband. They like to have a cellphone. We know that some people are still doing their business. They are inside and they're still doing their business outside. Is there pressure on family? Of course. When we decided to take tobacco out of jail, it was about the money inside. Give me three packs of smokes; that represents two pieces of drugs. Good. Now we take out the money like tobacco there. What they're trying to do is put pressure outside: ask your wife to go and make a term deposit of $400 into that bank account.
You were talking about Drumheller. I visited that place two years ago, and it's true. I was proud to finally see a place where staff can have that information. Two years ago I visited Drumheller, the big board in the staff room. Well, it's not like this everywhere. In some places you don't have all the information like this. It's like secret intelligence. They like to keep that information for them. That's another problem. It's our problem because it's all related to everything. If somebody was telling me more information about the gang inside, if I'm a correctional officer, it would be better for me to have better ears.
And the pressure on the family.... I was talking about a mother, a grandmother. I saw a grandmother who was crying when she called the institution--the pressure on her. They have access by cellphone. They have their list of numbers they can call. And, like I told you, I'm calling Michelle: do you want to transfer me to another place?
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much, Mr. Mallette.
I'm very proud of Drumheller and proud of my constituency. Maybe we're going to have to figure out a way to get our committee to come to the beautiful Canadian badlands at Drumheller and see the penitentiary, the institution, there as well.
Mr. Scarpaleggia, please, you have seven minutes.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Mallette. Your testimony is fascinating. Honestly, you have opened our eyes to a lot of things, I speak for myself at least.
Do you think the percentage of inmates who use drugs is between 80 and 90%?
12:35 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
No. Mr. Head just said that 80% of inmates have a drug problem.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Do you think more than 50% of inmates are using drugs inside the institutions?
12:35 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
To be honest, in my experience, we talk a lot about drugs, but let's talk instead about drugs and alcohol. Let's not forget about alcohol. I think the percentage is much higher than 50%.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
But Mr. Head said that when urinalyses are done, it turns out that about 7% of inmates are using drugs and alcohol. That's quite a gap.
12:35 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
It's interesting. The data is interesting. Did the inmates manage in some way to falsify the urine tests? I don't know. It's true that there's a problem between the statistical data and what we see as correctional officers. I think it's true.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Do you think the rate of intoxicant use hasn't really dropped significantly?
12:35 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
I think that the new tools have made it more difficult for people who want to bring drugs into the institutions. I sincerely believe that the drug-detecting dogs, the Ionscan detection devices and the urine tests are tools that make it more difficult to bring drugs in.
But, by doing that, are we going to resolve the problem completely? No. Even in our own society on the outside, we are spending billions of dollars on the war against drugs. Have we managed to eliminate it completely? No.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
12:35 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
No.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
12:35 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
There are two reasons. First, it's a lack of resources. Second, there is sometimes a logic at play from the employer. At any given moment, I have to take on my role as president. When I receive calls and people tell me…
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
12:35 p.m.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
The president of the union. I'm the president of the national union.
For example, if resources are given to a place to deal with the problem of drugs being thrown over the fences, someone may interpret that as requiring a minimum operational position and the position may be cut. But that's the interpretation of one person.