Public Safety Committee on Dec. 5th, 2012

[Don Head]

Mr. Chair, I thank the member for the question. I'd also like to thank her for her interest in Leclerc. I know the staff very much appreciated the visit and the engagement.

Thank you very much for that.

At the end of the day we will have more cells, even with the closure. When we net out approximately the 1,000 cells from the three institutions we're closing with the 2,752 we're building, we're net about 1,700 more.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much both.

We'll move to Mr. Hawn please for five minutes.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.

I just want to ask Mr. Flack or Mr. Guimont a question one more time on the hiring program that we promised in the 2006 election, I think it was. It was very specific, for 2,500 members, and that was done, so the program is finished and it's time to move on. It was never intended to be a permanent program. Is that correct?

[Graham Flack]

That's correct. In the budget announcement, the Minister of Finance indicated it would be a one-time injection.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Commissioner Head, I want to thank you, or commend you, for not asking for anything more this year. I think that's a good example to set for folks.

Mr. Fadden, I'd like to ask you a question about some concerns that have been expressed in some areas about oversight and accountability in CSIS because we are merging the responsibilities of the Office of the Inspector General and SIRC, the Security Intelligence Review Committee. Can you just explain how SIRC will continue to provide vigorous independent oversight over CSIS? Is that merging of any particular concern to you?

[Richard Fadden, Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service]

No, I don't think so. To begin with, the specific responsibilities of the Inspector General that are enumerated in the statute, that is to say certify my annual report, have been transferred to the SIRC and a small number of FTEs have been transferred as well.

The other thing to remember is that at the time the service was created some 30 years ago, the environment was quite a bit different. Today the Federal Court is far more active in monitoring what we do and how we do it. They have amicus. They have special advocates. There are all sorts of things of that nature.

As well, 27 years ago, the public service and the service did not have an independent internal audit system certified and controlled by the Treasury Board.

If you put all this in the pot—if I can put it that way—I think we're still monitored quite effectively. One of the things that I advocated at the time the government was considering this change was something called unity of monitoring or unity of oversight. There was, when there was an inspector general, occasional overlaps in what they were doing. In the end, the government agreed that this wasn't an effective use of the taxpayers' money and they moved in this direction. In the final analysis, we're saving about $1 million a year.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Very good, thank you.

Commissioner Paulson, contract policing is in place. We've talked about that a little bit. I don't know about other provinces, but in Alberta, as I'm sure you're aware, they've initiated a sheriff's department. Do you see that as a positive thing? I'm sure you probably would. How does that impact the duties of the RCMP in Alberta in terms of their assuming some of the responsibilities, for example, traffic?

[Commr Bob Paulson]

Yes, traffic, and thank you for the question.

What we want to do, and I'm on my folks about this all the time, is try to innovate our delivery of policing services both in the contracts and in our federal primary mandate. The RCMP started a long time ago. We've done a lot of things in law enforcement, including transporting prisoners from court to the correctional facility. We do traffic. We're always looking for opportunities to save money.

In fact, we have a couple of programs within the RCMP that are looking at different ways of delivering services that don't attract the sort of.... We were talking about transfers before, and there's the aboriginal community constable program for example. It's a new way. It's a new kind of an officer. We're looking into aboriginal communities to bring those officers forward and then send them back to their community to stay there.

I think that's a very positive development where we can look for efficiencies and continue to partner with any number of agencies to help us do our job.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I assume it would provide some financial relief in terms of money that you would otherwise have to ask for and expend on contract policing.

[Commr Bob Paulson]

That's exactly right.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I have a question for you, Mr. Cenaiko, because we haven't picked on you at all.

There have been some changes in regard to criminal record checks with respect to pardons or—there is new terminology and I forget what we call pardons now.

[A voice]

Record suspensions.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Can you outline some of those?

[Harvey Cenaiko, Chairperson, National Parole Board]

With the changes in the legislation, they now are called record suspensions instead of pardons. There were basically two areas in that process. June 29, 2010 was when the major legislation changed and new decision processes came into place for record suspensions. It really talks about two concepts. The first is whether the record suspension would provide a measurable benefit for the applicant. The second involves a series of factors that board members have to determine to ensure that the granting of a record suspension would not bring the administration of justice into disrepute.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much for the question and the answer.

We'll go back to the official opposition.

Madame Doré Lefebvre.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

If possible, I will let Mr. Rafferty use the remainder of my time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Monsieur Rafferty, for five minutes, please.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Guimont and Mr. Flack, my questions are for you.

You heard my question for the minister regarding first nations policing. I wonder if you could give us some idea of the amount of money that is being spent this year. I gather it's all being transferred to the province for first nations policing, at least that's my understanding from the minister.

You did subsequently answer one of my questions on the police recruitment fund, which is now gone. That creates some further hardship on first nations policing, particularly those who have hired officers and are underfunded already.

How much money is being transferred this year for first nations policing across Canada?

[François Guimont]

Thank you for the question. I will look to my colleague, Mr. Flack, to top up my answer as required.

Mr. Chairman, the first point I would make is that this is a cost-shared approach. There is 50% that is paid by the federal government and the difference of 48% is paid by the provinces. That's an important first point to make.

The second point is that in budget 2011—and that's a direct answer to your question—$30 million was provided for two years to augment the program. Essentially, for 2012-13 the program is $120 million. You were asking the minister if there was anything in supplementary estimates (B) with respect to this program, and the answer is yes. With regard to the $120 million that I just mentioned, there is a segment of $1.75 million which is on the table to be approved. That money, which is part of the $120 million, but is part of the supplementary estimates (B) before you, would be given to the RCMP to purchase the services through that program.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

With regard to a province that does not have the RCMP in a direct role in provincial policing, how does that work? How does that work in Quebec and Ontario, for example?

[François Guimont]

Now I am outside of my depth and I will turn to my colleague, Mr. Flack.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Flack.

[Graham Flack]

Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I think the committee members may be aware it's a tripartite program, so it's negotiated with the first nations as well. The delivery vehicle varies by first nation. In some cases it's a first nations police force, a local police force, that provides the services. In some cases, those services may be provided by RCMP members, or with the support of the RCMP. It will depend on the community. It could involve provincial police, as well, depending on the community.

We leave that up to the community to determine the best way to deliver it. Ultimately those arrangements vary, regardless of whether it's a contract jurisdiction or not.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I could certainly make a comment on that.

If I use the same example of NAPS, the Nishnawbe-Aski Police Service, they police 47 communities, so it's not just one community that we're talking about. This is increasingly so, because policing right across the country is getting crunched. All budgets are getting crunched, whether it's federally, provincially, or municipally funded, and increasingly so. A few years ago, NAPS, for example, could depend on the OPP to help out in certain instances. They're no longer able to help out.

It becomes even more critical in a policing situation like NAPS, in northern Ontario, where the demands increase considerably but the funding does not. We're talking about basic things. We're not talking about operational money here. We're talking about money for infrastructure, for communications, the sort of thing that's been neglected at the expense of.... There are that many communities and you need to hire a certain number of officers to police those communities, and it becomes increasingly more difficult.

I know you are new, Mr. Guimont, but you've probably seen some correspondence from first nations police forces across Canada—or maybe you haven't—about the dire straits they're in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Your time is right on the five minutes.

If you're going to give him an opportunity—