Evidence of meeting #26 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was outcomes.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gianni Ciufo  Partner, Finance Advisory, Deloitte
Lars Boggild  Program Development Officer, Finance for Good
Denise Hearn  Program Development Officer, Finance for Good

May 29th, 2014 / 4:25 p.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Ciufo, thank you for coming.

I find the topic of social impact bonds very interesting. When I look at the material you've given us, Deloitte certainly appears to be looking at this and appears to be at the leading edge of organizations.

You've already contacted over 80 organizations that are willing to put up some funding. I believe that's a particularly positive statement.

You mentioned earlier that a social impact bond had been issued in Saskatchewan. In terms of population, Saskatchewan is a very small province. I'm wondering if you can tell us about that social impact bond. When was it deployed, and what kind of outcomes are you looking at?

4:25 p.m.

Partner, Finance Advisory, Deloitte

Gianni Ciufo

I'd be happy to.

We were advisors to the province on a very small, by international standards, impact bond in the low seven figure area. But the social objective was, particularly among first nations, to help at-risk mothers and their families to be safe, to support them while in a safe home, to support the family, and to hopefully have the objective of children not being in foster care but in a safe environment where they are supported in attending school, and the family unit is together and functioning well. So that is the outcome that is desired in that case.

It's a very small pilot project, and that was known and acknowledged by the investors and by the government. But it was very deliberate. They thought that was a prudent way to start in this area and to look for ways to leverage private investment for this, based on their analysis. I don't know the exact date that transaction closed, but I would estimate it was in the recent few weeks.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Okay. Can you tell us who those investors were?

4:25 p.m.

Partner, Finance Advisory, Deloitte

Gianni Ciufo

Yes I believe it is public information. The investors, I believe, were a Canadian credit union and a private family from that community, and they came together and split the investment, I think half and half.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Do we know the timeframe on that?

4:25 p.m.

Partner, Finance Advisory, Deloitte

Gianni Ciufo

The timeframe is I believe five years. There might be an additional timeframe of perhaps another year or so to make sure the outcome is properly measured; but it's in that range of a timeframe, say five to six years or so.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

That's very interesting.

I also noted the material you gave us, and you actually have a checklist for success. Can you make a comment or two on the checklist, because I think that's a really important aspect. Obviously, you would work with that checklist with financial institutions or other organizations that would certainly provide the funding and whatever the program might be.

4:25 p.m.

Partner, Finance Advisory, Deloitte

Gianni Ciufo

I think it's really important to assess the situation and analyze the situation to make sure that it makes sense from a financial perspective and that it's very likely to have a strong positive business case from a financial standpoint. But the actual outcome is impactful and has a very valuable outcome. If you put those together, for me, that's a compelling business case. That's one primary area.

I think another area is to be very careful in the performance measurement and to know and understand that if kids are in school there are a variety of positive benefits, financially and otherwise, that really cut across the different levels of government and the different levels of the community. So work hard to appreciate all of those cost savings and not look at the somewhat artificial boundaries that we place between different organizations and different departments, even within the same government.

I think another key success factor is to right-size the initiative and to pick a sample population where you can really have a higher level of confidence that the program that is funded is having that positive effect, or not, and that the relationship isn't tenuous. Those are some of the things.

I think it's important, too, that the public sector sponsor be knowledgeable in this are before it goes out and that it have skills and capacity internally to do these types of things and to be properly advised as to how best to structure, operate, and also assess the outcomes at the end of the day and report back, for full transparency.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you very much, Mr. Ciufo.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB

Oh, I had too many more questions. Thank you very much.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you, Mr. Payne. I do thank you for your interest.

Certainly on behalf of the committee, Mr. Ciufo, thank you very kindly for not only your presentation but also for your attendance and your responses here today. We really do appreciate it.

The committee will now suspend for just a minute or two while we welcome our new witnesses.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

The committee will now resume.

We have with us two witnesses from the organization Finance for Good. We welcome Denise Hearn, program development officer, and we have Lars Boggild, program development officer.

You can decide among yourselves whatever your presentation is. You have up to 10 minutes for a joint presentation. After that, we will go to questions and answers. Thank you.

Carry on.

4:35 p.m.

Lars Boggild Program Development Officer, Finance for Good

First of all, Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony today. As an organization, we certainly deeply appreciate that.

What I intend to provide as testimony today is a little bit of what we do as an organization, the landscape we're seeing in social finance as it applies to crime prevention, and some of the particular initiatives we're seeing in working within and across Canada.

My colleague Denise will speak to how the system of justice—and crime prevention in particular—relates to some of the feasibility constraints that really do apply in social financing, as well as a lot of the interest we're seeing from service providers and what that looks like and why.

To begin with what we do as an organization, to my knowledge we are Canada's only built-for-purpose social impact bond intermediary. As a social impact bond intermediary, we aim to use these instruments as a tool to allow communities across Canada to invest in prevention of various sorts.

As I mentioned, we're primarily a social impact bond intermediary, and there are really two separate functions.

The first is working directly with organizations, usually non-profits, towards a position to feasibly engage in these sorts of instruments and really to get to a state where they can engage in these sorts of contracts and receive investment. It's something that's somewhat temporary, but we work with organizations developmentally against these various challenges, such as measurement, impact attribution, financial modelling, etc. This upfront effort is really necessary if policy priorities or areas of interest, including crime prevention, are to intersect, really, with a social sector that is equally able to step up and begin to deliver on these sorts of outcomes.

The second function that is really involved as an intermediary is that we work with both those non-profits and commissioning governments, as well as investors, to structure, help raise the capital for, and monitor the performance and implementation around social impact bonds. It's something that's more ongoing, and it really lasts over the life cycle of a social impact bond.

I'm just trying to frame what we do.

In speaking about the landscape as it applies to crime prevention, as Gianni mentioned before, there are many models of social financing. Social impact bonds are just one, but by far they're what we primarily do. As a result, we believe there is still a lot of room for innovation in the development of new structures to allow investment for social and environmental outcomes.

A social impact bond, as it's been explained, is really two things. One is an outcomes payment contract, which says that for a certain performance, government would pay as has been indicated. The second is actually the financing itself: providing the working capital up front such that organizations and non-profits can actually deliver these interventions in pursuit of these valuable social outcomes.

As a result of this, much global social bonds activity outside of Canada is actually already focused on crime reduction. In our tracking alone, there are three SIBs that are currently live and focused entirely on reducing recidivism outcomes: in Massachusetts, in Peterborough in the U.K., and in New York City.

There are another three that are focused on mixed outcomes, essentially, targeting things like reductions in recidivism or reduction in crime, as well as things like gains in employment. As well, there is another one currently in design in Israel.

So we can see that there is quite an active community of practice. It's growing. It's small, still, but it's growing in this space as it applies to these instruments. Cumulatively, those seven that I mentioned account for approximately $72.2 million Canadian in private social investment essentially geared towards reducing crime, reducing things like recidivism, and ultimately trying to generate positive social change for incarcerated individuals or offenders of various sorts.

Importantly, in tracking these initiatives, we see that there is actually growing comfort with these investment vehicles. Some of the mechanisms that might have been used to make them less risky in the past are falling out of use, and the actual overall size of investment in these vehicles itself is growing. To us, that indicates both that people are getting more comfortable with this and that they're willing to invest more.

In Canada, as was mentioned, there's one social impact bond so far. It's focused on at-risk mothers and their families. Much of the developmental activity, such as that social impact bond in Saskatchewan, has been at the provincial level, and I think it's noteworthy that governments of many political orientations have actually been very interested in this. In Nova Scotia, where I'm based—in Halifax—the provincial New Democrats, the former government there, wanted to actually be the first jurisdiction in Canada to implement a social impact bond. Meanwhile, in Ontario, a call for concepts has been issued by a Liberal government, and in Alberta the Progressive Conservatives have committed to innovative approaches to social challenges, including these social impact bonds.

So this diversity of interest we are encountering has multiple motivations. Social impact bonds can be a learning tool, a mechanism by which we can essentially engage effectively in research and development within the social sector. The scale is rigorous enough without both the political and public financial costs of failures. The flexibility of this funding can also allow for what we would call “in-process innovation”, and service providers can reactively learn in the process of implementing to drive performance improvements.

Social impact bonds can be a mechanism to allow for greater risk-taking on a scale that's commensurate with major social issues. In some cases there's a recognition that there are many challenges governments have tried to address in the past, don't feel they have full ownership over or the ability to directly address themselves, and see as their priority the mechanisms to address their priorities. Then, equally, they are a tool for new investment in a constrained budgetary context.

In our interactions with many provincial governments we're already seeing this understanding that while this is valuable and that investment in prevention in various forms is very valuable, there's already a lot of spending in acute care, whether or not in forms of incarceration or various forms of justice treatment. So there's often a need for what we call “bridging capital” toward prevention, and social impact bonds can fit in that gap. They can perhaps be that bridge.

We know they're not without concerns, obviously, concerns about whether or not this is government shirking its own responsibilities. As an organization dedicated to this field, we think this is taking accountability around outcomes as a government that that this is quite positive. There are concerns about profiting essentially from social problems, but we recognize that financial return is really compensation for risk. It's compensation for having risk tolerance to engage in what are essentially innovative projects, which is incredibly important.

There are concerns about cherry-picking, just doing the easy issues. I think we have to delineate between what's happening now and what could happen in the future, and how we need to learn from what may be more understandable or legible domains, such as justice and crime prevention, to enable us to begin to expand the scope of tools such as this to things that may be more difficult to measure or track. That's okay.

There are concerns that this may only happen in big population centres. Feasibility constraints around the transaction costs for that, as Gianni mentioned, may make it difficult to apply these instruments to very small populations. We think whether or not it's grouping many small populations together to make larger projects happen or equally.... There are cases already in Perth, Scotland, where a very small social impact bond was implemented. It involved a local community and local businesses; this is possible at that scale.

Overall, there are opportunities to facilitate growth in this area. The developmental requirements are significant and we're very familiar with them and I'm sure Denise will speak to them as well, including the notion of having clarity around intentions and goals on the part of government, so that organizations such as ours and service providers, including those we interact with, know what audience their sort of work will flow into.

Then there's development funding as well, the fact the start-up costs of this new focus on the part of the social sector are not insignificant. In many other jurisdictions, including the U.K., there's an understanding that's a need that needs to be filled.

Finally, there is the question of data and information, A really strong example of this is in the U.K. As they pursued social impact bonds they've developed a tool kit, which includes chargemaster data that says these are figures that government incredibly believes are accurately reflective of its costs, such that organizations such as ours and the non-profits we work with can incredibly construct these sorts of businesses cases that they know can confidently move forward.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to present today.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

You only have about half a minute.

4:45 p.m.

Denise Hearn Program Development Officer, Finance for Good

Oh my, okay.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Ms. Hearn, please give us your thoughts during that time, and of course, if you have further comments, feel free to make the balance of your message in the round of questioning, certainly.

4:45 p.m.

Program Development Officer, Finance for Good

Denise Hearn

Sure. I suppose, then, I'll just take a moment to mention my primary interest in this area, which is the service provider.

The reason these organizations actually find this a very credible and valuable model for them is, one, the long-term capital. In the current granting system, when they're required to implement programs year after year and track those measurements only year by year, it's very difficult to actually prove the long-term objectives they want to see with their clients. This gives them an opportunity to improve measurement within their organizations over the long term. We find that very valuable. It's unrestricted as well, allowing organizations to actually meet their outcomes while we're moving from an output mentality to outcomes within the social sector.

We believe SIBs are one way of driving this kind of major philosophical change within the social sector. Certainly they're not the only way, but we believe SIBs can catalyze this large-scale reconstruction, I would say, of the outcomes we are trying to see within the social sector.

Thank you.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you very much. I appreciate the brevity.

Mr. Norlock, seven minutes, please.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Through you to the witnesses, thank you for being here. There are some very interesting things for us to chew on.

To give you some more airtime, Ms. Hearn, I want you to speak more about service providers and to talk about outcomes. I'd like you to compare, if you can, because I suspect you've done this, outcomes of strictly government programs and outcomes that persons using....

I'm not talking about just social impact bonds; as you say, they're only one tool. Let's talk about the entirety of social finance as it pertains to this committee's study of crime prevention. Perhaps you could talk about the difference and then comment on the value of diversity in approaches to crime prevention.

4:45 p.m.

Program Development Officer, Finance for Good

Denise Hearn

Absolutely. I think ultimately all of the various stakeholders in not only a social impact bond but in the general social finance landscape, whether that is public, private, or social sector, have similar objectives around wanting to see our communities healthier, better, and more crime-free, in this particular case. Obviously, with the diversity of beneficiaries from the programs implemented within the realm of crime prevention, there will be all kinds of different needs that each beneficiary of these programs will need to receive from implementing organizations.

I think one of the great things about this type of model is that you identify a specific outcome, whether that is the reduction of recidivism or perhaps, in this case, an avoidance of juvenile justice system interaction. Then the financing that goes towards the meeting of that outcome is unrestricted. It doesn't matter how it's used within the course or the implementation of the program as long as that specific outcome is met.

I think it allows for a lot of flexibility and diversity and innovation and creativity when it comes to looking at what types of programs we are funding.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

Thank you very much.

Would you agree with me that governments have something very valuable that they use? Governments don't have any money; they only have the money of the taxpayers, your money and mine. Governments tend to be averse to risk, and governments have programs for crime reduction.

Let's say a government wanted to steer some of those valuable tax dollars towards crime prevention, or any kind of program for that matter, and they wanted to make sure that a desired measurable outcome occurred in a relatively short time. Governments put money into crime prevention, have a program, and hire...you know, there are a lot of people in the government who want to make it work, and they do other things.

But specifically related to working with another sector, whether it's for-profit or not-for-profit, would you agree that the measuring sticks we would use in utilizing social financing...? Usually they're three- to five-year outcomes, and then there's the measuring. Usually the parameter is around five-year outcomes. Would you agree with me that it's worth the risk?

Then I want you to talk about how you reduce those risks. I note that your CFO of Finance for Good wrote that he's trying to reduce the risks associated with things like SIBs.

That's giving you lots to chew on, and you have probably three minutes to do it in.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

How about a specific question, Mr. Norlock? There are a number of them there.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

No, my specific...in general, social financing programs.

4:50 p.m.

Program Development Officer, Finance for Good

Denise Hearn

Would we agree with you that it's worth the risk? Of course, absolutely. In terms of the reduction of risk, inherently these populations that we're dealing with are risky transactions...sorry, collaborative efforts that we're entering into.

Would you want to speak to part of that?

4:50 p.m.

Program Development Officer, Finance for Good

Lars Boggild

Yes, I would just add that what we've encountered in previous examples of social impact bonds that have been implemented, and even those that we are engaged in the development of, is an understanding that within the delivery model what we focus on is very much driven by outcomes. It's not thinking so much about just the activities. There's the capacity for spending on operational overhead, measurement systems, data performance measurement, which allows more nimble reaction to the sort of rapid feedback that these organizations are getting on the ground.

To give a very simple example, in the case of Peterborough, U.K., the first social impact bond, they began with seven partners. It's pretty substantive to begin with, but over the first year they expanded to 11, because they recognized that there were additional needs, areas, other service providers that could have that form of flexible, rapid procurement in support of the sorts of outcomes that are ultimately sought. So that's the difference we see, almost philosophically, as you begin to expand toward these other instruments to have that flexibility, that nimbleness.