Public Safety Committee on April 18th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Michaud.

Mr. MacGregor, you have six minutes, please

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I'd like to thank our witnesses today for helping to guide us through this study.

It seems to me when looking at this issue that there are two potential advantages that we can make use of when dealing with this problem. First, a car is not the easiest thing to hide because of its size and, second, our ports seem to be natural choke points, in that people rely on your ports to reach those lucrative export markets.

This is obviously a multi-faceted problem. We've heard from a range of witnesses: from auto manufacturers to police to intelligence-gathering. They all have a role to play, but given the fact that a car is not the easiest item to hide and that we have a natural choke point, I'm just wondering how best we can take advantage of that.

At the port of Montreal, when you have successfully located contraband cars, obviously stolen cars, I know that with the containers they are loaded off-site. They are sealed, and I assume that's with a wire tag with a manifest. When you've worked your way back, you've opened the container and you've found stolen cars.... That's how I like to approach problems. You find a problem and work your way backwards.

What have been some of the common themes in that investigation? Where did things go wrong? Who ultimately signed off on what was in the container? That's what I want to know: How do we best improve that process?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

Part of where the process goes haywire is that there is no accountability on who stocked the container. The paperwork, once they sign off and it is sent to CBSA, is the end of it, but there is nobody who signs off by saying what is in the container for real. It's all what's being seen on paper. It's fraud, but how do you detect fraud? It's something that maybe needs to be reviewed in the regulations for accountability on the stocking of the container.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

In discovering that fraud in the paperwork, is the person saying that it is in fact a vehicle that's being shipped but it's a legitimate vehicle, or have you sometimes found that, no, the manifest says that there had been something completely different under some circumstances?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

It says, “Frigidaires” instead of cars. They say it's refrigerators, but there are cars instead. As I said, there is no accountability on who shuts the doors and puts the seal on.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Yes.

Ms. Gill, do you have anything to add to that, such as patterns that the Vancouver Fraser Port Authority has seen?

[Anita Gill]

No, I don't. Thank you.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Okay.

I want to delve into the use of technology. I understand from Mr. Gaheer's line of questioning that's within the purview of the CBSA.

I know that our ports are extremely busy places and that our economy relies on your operations to be efficient. We don't want containers to stay static. You require them to be moved at quite a rapid pace. I'm just wondering: If we're going to make these investments in this technology, how do you envision it is best used?

I know that containers arrive at ports by train and by truck. Do you envision a system where as each truck is rolling in through your entrances—or where it's on trains—it's being scanned? Help me understand the logistics of what this involves and what your requirements are as ports both to satisfy the security requirements and also to make sure the goods are still moving through at an acceptable rate.

[Félixpier Bergeron]

I would add to that the safety aspect of the location of the equipment. Usually, we are talking about radiation-emitting equipment to scan—to X-ray—the containers.

That maybe would involve the safety of the trucker, the operator or the workers around it. We need to better assess what the implication is of putting in that technology. Do we have the space to put in enough of them but not slow down the entrance too much, or the exit if you wanted to go to the exit too? It needs to be studied before we can commit to that type of solution.

It exists somewhere else in the world, but in those places, they don't have the same commitment to human life that we do in Canada.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

As a representative of the Montreal Port Authority, have you seen demonstrations of this technology in use? In the places where it is being used, what lessons have you learned from how it's being deployed?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

We haven't travelled to those countries that use the technology. I know it exists. We are not close to the use of those solutions, but it needs to be studied as to the impacts.

Just to give you an analogy, with the equipment that CBSA already uses to scan the import containers, it takes between four and five minutes to scan each container. When we have 2,000 trucks a day entering the port, times four minutes, it doesn't work.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Ms. Gill, in your opening statement you made some recommendations.

I'm assuming these are quite expensive machines. In your opinion, would that be a smart investment, or do you think we would fall into the trap of overreliance on technology at the expense of human intelligence?

You have so much experience, so I want to hear your perspective on this.

[Anita Gill]

Thank you.

I do think there is a place for AI to be able to assist the human capital that we use for searching containers. There are many implications of installing X-ray machines, like resourcing and additional potential responsibilities on CBSA and the terminal operators. We'd definitely be willing to participate in a conversation on what that would look like and who all would be impacted.

I do feel that there is a place for AI to be able to scan the manifest and compare it to the contents of the container, to be able to identify more hot cans for CBSA to consider.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

We're moving on to round two now.

We'll start with Mr. Motz, please.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

A couple of things are certainly troubling. One is the fact that the port authorities don't have access to review the manifests. CBSA does to some degree. Obviously there is a big gap where, as you said, Mr. Bergeron, a manifest is completed, but no one confirms that what's actually in the container is what's on the manifest. This is an area we can fix.

Are there any recommendations you have for that? I don't have time to do it all today, but if you guys from the port authorities could supply the information on your recommendations as to how we can fix that gap, that would be great.

I started in law enforcement in 1980, before most of you in this room were born, and I can tell you that back then, early on, traditional organized crime in Montreal and outlawed motorcycle gangs in Vancouver ran the ports, and they still run the ports. That is a fact. When I say that, it's not in the port proper necessarily. It's that gap between a car stolen in the GTA and.... People think they drive it into the port and drive it into a container on port property. We know that's not how it happens. We have a gap there as well.

We know that crime is getting worse in this country after the nine years of this government. What do we need to do to ensure that what's in the containers that are being filled elsewhere and coming onto port property is actually what is in them, and that we know what's in them?

How do we do that differently, given that organized crime is absolutely involved in that process?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

Off the bat, it's kind of tough to answer the question precisely.

As I said earlier, it's important to revise either the regs or the act to add some form of accountability, be it the driver of the truck, be it the freight forwarder, whoever it may be. Somebody has to be signing off on what is in the container. If it's false, somebody's going to go to jail for that.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you for that.

I noticed, Ms. Gill, that you made a comment about the Marine Transportation Security Act.

If the government takes the initiative to update that act, is it possible that we could change the process such that, before a container is sealed and enters port property, it is inspected? You open up the back door and someone at the port entrance says, “Yes, we have refrigerators,” or, “No, we have cars. This is not what the manifest says.”

Would that be something that could stop the movement of contraband in and out of this country?

[Anita Gill]

I wouldn't say that it could be done in that fashion.

The MTSRs are for port authorities to put in security measures to protect Canada's critical infrastructure, not exclusively but that is the primary responsibility. The MTSRs do not have any mention of putting in measures for detecting or preventing criminality.

My suggestion would be, when we're talking about roles and accountabilities, to add more of a role in there for persons either at the marine terminals or at the port authorities so we could put in additional measures to assist law enforcement more than we're able to today.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

The Vancouver port probably has more, but you indicated that in Montreal you have 275 employees for the port and about 25,000 peripheral people—companies that come in and do operations there.

What security measures do you have in place from a security clearance perspective? Do you guys do them? Do you get law enforcement to do all of your security clearances for everybody?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

No, the security clearance program is driven by Transport Canada.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Okay, but who does them?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

Transport Canada does them.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Transport Canada does them.

Where does Transport Canada get the information to do background checks on not only your 275 employees but the 25,000 who have access to your port?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

They don't do 25,000 people.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

That's the problem.