Public Safety Committee on April 18th, 2024

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I know that these criminal organizations, by process of evolution, in order for them to survive, have to be very smart in their operations, very compartmentalized. When a criminal organization directs one of its low-level members to steal a car, and one is stolen, in your opinion and experience, when is that organization at its most vulnerable? Where is your best point for interceding?

Is it in the initial moments after the car is stolen? Is it the natural choke points at the ports? We're just trying to understand, as a committee, where we can best direct federal resources.

[Michel Patenaude]

I think that for us the strategy is really to target more of the networks and the exporters, the ones that are in contact with the clients overseas, the ones that have have contacts with people on the ground. They're the ones pulling the strings. They're the ones who are hiring and recruiting. There are recruits—lots of them.

That takes manpower.

If we really want to have an impact and really want to dismantle and lower this crisis, we have to go to the people pulling the strings and concentrate on the networks that are exporting and transporting and have the contacts with the people overseas.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

We've heard from previous witnesses about how the average age of people involved in stealing cars is getting lower. We've heard age ranges from 15 to 22. Like Mr. Schiefke, I'm amazed that someone that young can overcome a car today with all of the advertised technology in it. However, when you apprehend these young individuals, what kinds of patterns are you seeing with regard to their backgrounds?

Also, given the nature of the criminal organization that they work for, is it relatively easy to get them to turn into an informant, or is there a threat of violence that's preventing them from assisting you?

[Michel Patenaude]

I'm not going to go into too much detail on the last part of your question, but what I can say is that we do see a the recruitment of street gangs that have a history of violence, of narcotics. That is a certain clientele that is being hired by these criminal organizations to do that, but it's not 100% of the people as well. It varies.

[Yannick Desmarais]

That concerns us of course, because people between the ages of 15 and 25 are being recruited. We have even seen cases of young people travelling from Montreal to Toronto to steal vehicles, where they were tortured if they did not want to steal them.

We do need to focus on those young people, but we also need to cut off the flow of money going into organized crime, which is why teamwork is important.

[Michel Patenaude]

I would just add something to that. I think this is a good opportunity to do some prevention as well with these young offenders, like we did with the gun violence in Quebec. They're being recruited and they're vulnerable. I think the education piece is very important, and the prevention piece is very important too with these young offenders.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

As police officers, would you both endorse further resources in reaching out to these young people before they get caught up in this criminal world?

[Michel Patenaude]

Absolutely.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

You've seen remarkable success in those type of programs.

[Michel Patenaude]

Absolutely.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Wonderful. Thank you for that.

Just as a final conversation, we have heard frustration from police that sometimes they find repeat offenders back on the street again committing the same crime. We know in the Criminal Code that tools do exist to increase sentences based on aggravating factors and a person's history.

In your relationship with Crown prosecutors, why are those existing tools of the Criminal Code not being used somehow in some cases to police officers' satisfaction?

[Yannick Desmarais]

We certainly have excellent relationships with the various prosecutors, whether young people or adults are involved.

In many cases, however, the young people we arrest on the street have no criminal record. In those cases, we have to use the tools at our disposal, which means releasing them. So I think we have to work on that and also reach out to young people through prevention because they can make a lot of money stealing cars. That is a real draw for them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Based on the time, we're going to move to two and a half minutes.

Mr. Lloyd, you're up.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions will be directed to the officers present.

Some commentators have argued that these auto thefts are essentially victimless crimes and that we're dealing purely with property theft. Some commentators have argued that, not only are minimum sentences and stiffer sentences ineffective, they would be unjust—an opinion that I obviously do not agree with. We know this is not a victimless crime. Organized crime isn't putting the massive profits they are making off these stolen vehicles towards beneficial uses for society.

I'm hoping you can illustrate to us what your intelligence is telling you about what the profits from auto thefts are doing in our country. Are they contributing to firearm violence? Are they contributing to our drug epidemic? Can you give us some more details and context about what these stolen vehicles are paying for in our country?

[Yannick Desmarais]

As to the intelligence relating to firearms, and with regard to homicides as well, we see clearly that there are people directly linked to vehicle thefts. When we conduct searches to seize equipment used in vehicle thefts, we seize firearms on a regular basis. So there is really a direct link between vehicle thefts and access to firearms and money.

[Michel Patenaude]

I would add that what we're seeing is organized crime being very good at adjusting to the opportunities out there, in order to make a lot of money quickly. We see it with fraudulent activity. Organized crime has shifted into that. Now it has shifted into car thefts as well. I think what we're seeing is organized crime adjusting to the markets available to it.

On our end, right now, our intel hasn't seen too much financing of other criminal activities. What we see is the same organized crime taking advantage of different markets of criminality.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

It's my last 30 seconds.

You are seeing a direct link between organized crime stealing these vehicles and profits being put into violent activities, such as homicides, gun-running and the drug epidemic. You are seeing a strong connection between these two factors.

[Yannick Desmarais]

Yes, there certainly is a link. Even in some cases of arson—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Would you say that it's a victimless crime, yes or no? Stealing and auto theft are not victimless crimes.

[Yannick Desmarais]

Yes, there are victims. It is not just vehicles being stolen and people losing money.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

Mr. Bittle, go ahead, please, for two and a half minutes.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you so much.

That was a bizarre straw man, because I don't think anyone here, from what I have heard, said this is a victimless crime.

Monsieur Desmarais, maybe it was something in the translation, but you said you were concerned about young people being released on bail—those who didn't have a criminal record.

Is it your recommendation that young people without a criminal record should be incarcerated pretrial? Is that something that should happen in all cases?

[Yannick Desmarais]

No, I think each case is unique. We need to properly assess the risk of those young people reoffending. We would not automatically detain every one of those people, but if we had more powers, like a police force, that would of course make things easier for us.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you.

There was some discussion about sentencing being minimal. We talk about it in the Criminal Code. I believe auto theft has a maximum of 10 years, but I understand, hearing from multiple police services, that we're not seeing those sentences issued, even in the most severe cases.

My question, though, is with respect to other sections of the Criminal Code on continuing criminal enterprises.

To both of you, are your police services charging people under those sections and capturing the organized crime element of it, in order to get those sentences higher due to the severity and the inclusion of organized crime?

[Michel Patenaude]

There are different types of investigations. There are shorter-term and longer-term ones. When we investigate the longer-term ones while trying to dismantle a criminal organization, we're trying to acquire all the evidence to support organized crime charges.

In Quebec, our director of criminal and penal prosecutions is in charge of laying the charges, so it's not the police. What we do is give them all the evidence we have collected, and they decide what charges are going to be laid.