Evidence of meeting #103 for Public Safety and National Security in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was container.
A recording is available from Parliament.
8:40 a.m.
Director, Port Protection and Business Continuity, Montreal Port Authority
We could, if they asked for access, but they couldn't open a container by themselves. The CBSA or the RCMP needs to be there, because they are the only two that can open a container under the Customs Act.
8:40 a.m.
Liberal
Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON
You're saying that the CBSA and RCMP are the only two that can open the container.
8:40 a.m.
Director, Port Protection and Business Continuity, Montreal Port Authority
Under the Customs Act...yes.
8:40 a.m.
Liberal
Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON
Okay. Do you have local police jurisdictions across Canada reaching out to the port?
8:40 a.m.
Director, Port Protection and Business Continuity, Montreal Port Authority
Not yet. They haven't applied for that yet. It's open to them. We have told them....
We saw it a couple of weeks ago, when the OPP did a joint operation with the police of Montreal. They seized a lot of cars and arrested a few people. They came in with the police of jurisdiction, which is the police of Montreal.
It's a question of territorial jurisdiction, but if they demand access, they will grant them access. They can then get into the terminal, assess what it is and where they want to find something, and then call in the CBSA to open the container.
8:40 a.m.
Liberal
Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON
In your experience so far, from what you've observed, is the CBSA working in conjunction with these local police forces when they—
8:40 a.m.
Director, Port Protection and Business Continuity, Montreal Port Authority
It is. My comprehension is that it is working with them.
8:40 a.m.
Liberal
Iqwinder Gaheer Liberal Mississauga—Malton, ON
Thank you.
I'll just ask a question of the Vancouver Fraser Port Authority. Perhaps this question was already answered by the Montreal Port Authority.
Why do you think more vehicles are leaving Canada through the Montreal port than through your port? Is it just because of the geographical nature of the theft and where the vehicles are being taken, or is there another element to it?
8:40 a.m.
Director, Health, Safety and Security, Vancouver Fraser Port Authority
Yes, I believe that question was answered.
To the best of my knowledge, I don't know of any other factors that we should be considering for why the rates are different.
8:40 a.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
Chair, if I may, I want to answer Mr. Gaheer's question. It was a great line.
When you have municipal law enforcement—
8:40 a.m.
Liberal
8:40 a.m.
Conservative
Glen Motz Conservative Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB
I'm sorry. I just wanted to clarify something. He had a question about jurisdiction, and I don't think it was—
8:40 a.m.
Liberal
Jennifer O'Connell Liberal Pickering—Uxbridge, ON
You can have a conversation, but you're eating up everyone's time.
8:40 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Heath MacDonald
It may be something you can talk about, Mr. Motz, when your turn comes up, if you don't mind.
Ms. Michaud.
It was a good point, though.
8:40 a.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. We appreciate that.
We were very much looking forward to the testimony of the Port of Montreal officials, who have been at the core of this whole thing that we have been hearing about for the past few months. Journalists have referred to the Port of Montreal as the hub for stolen and exported vehicles. Some have called it a sieve.
Earlier, Mr. Bergeron, you said that there was really no criminal activity at the port and that it happens before or after the containers' transition through the port. Otherwise, perpetrators would be afraid of getting caught. However, you are aware that organized criminal activities are taking place and that employees could be involved.
From what I understand, the Montreal Port Authority may be a victim in this matter. However, I would like to know what role it plays.
Mr. Baudry, you talked about social responsibility earlier.
What is the process? What are the administrative steps and where could you intervene? I know there are different jurisdictions and different partners that can step in.
Let us say that I own a business—or appear to own one. If I buy or rent a container to fill it with goods for export, there is a document associated with that activity, and it has to be certified by customs officers. That container then arrives, either by rail or by truck, at the Port of Montreal. If the container arrives by truck, for example, the driver has an access card to enter the port. I imagine that the documents associated with the container are shown to customs officers or someone from the port authority.
Could you walk me through the administrative process?
8:45 a.m.
Director, Public Affairs, Montreal Port Authority
Thank you very much for the question.
I will start and then turn it over to my colleague.
It is important to know that the Montreal Port Authority has 275 employees and that approximately 25,000 people enter its territory annually. Obviously, every person who works for the authority or for one of its logistics partners—my colleagues will talk about the operators—receives a Transport Canada security clearance.
There is a logistics ballet, if I can put it that way, that takes place at the port. As you can well imagine, when a container arrives at one of our entries, at our trucking gate, a whole administrative process is triggered. However, we are not authorized to verify whether the truck is carrying the cargo indicated on the manifest.
It should also be noted that the information about what is in the containers is known to a very small number of people for a very simple reason: to make it more difficult for criminals to target a container for the purpose of committing a crime. Various barriers have been put in place, which makes it very difficult for us to intervene. So we have to rely on other partners or other agencies.
I have to stress that all of the necessary steps for a container to be eligible for export or for a trucker to be allowed to export occur outside of the port authority's jurisdiction. It is not up to the Montreal Port Authority to say that a given container can or cannot leave.
As we said, our focus is much more on the fluidity and the safety and security of the port sites. We are focusing on those activities.
8:45 a.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
I know that port authority officers have limited access. They can only open a container if there is a life in danger or an environmental risk. Do you think that access could be expanded?
Representatives of the Customs and Immigration Union told us that there are only eight customs officers at the Port of Montreal. Officials from the Canada Border Services Agency, who were here earlier this week, were unable to give us a figure as to the number of customs officers at the Port of Montreal.
Do you think that your officers could be more involved in the process or, on the contrary, that it is really not their job?
8:45 a.m.
Director, Port Protection and Business Continuity, Montreal Port Authority
We are willing to consider all possible solutions.
If that is part of the solution, we are open to considering and implementing it, as long as powers and authority are properly delegated and the required funding is provided. It would require equipment and manpower, but we are open to the suggestion.
8:45 a.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Logistically speaking, would it be easier to focus on containers or on the documentation?
In terms of solutions, I have heard people say that there should be more scanners, that we needed to invest in that type of equipment to try and scan every container. Other people told us that it would be almost impossible to scan every container that goes through the Port of Montreal.
Should we be looking more closely at the documents to try to find the fraudulent ones?
Investigators from the Journal de Montréal put all the data in an Excel spreadsheet and were able to figure out that certain vehicle identification numbers came up multiple times, as if the same vehicle had been exported several times.
In your opinion, should we focus more on the documentation or on containers themselves?
8:45 a.m.
Director, Port Protection and Business Continuity, Montreal Port Authority
That would be a good potential solution, but that does not fall within the Port of Montreal's jurisdiction. We do not have access to the detailed documents. Customs officers, on the other hand, do.
8:45 a.m.
Bloc
Kristina Michaud Bloc Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
You are overseeing the physical location but not what takes place there.
Is that correct?
8:45 a.m.
Director, Port Protection and Business Continuity, Montreal Port Authority
We manage the containers, but not their content. We have no access to what is inside. Terminals do not have access either. The only people who do have access to that information besides the exporter are the customs officers and the vessel operators.
The terminals and the port never see this information. We have a general idea of what is inside a given container, but we cannot open it to check if it is true.