Public Safety Committee on April 18th, 2024

[Félixpier Bergeron]

That might be part of the problem. They do it for specific positions or specific access to certain places, but not for the general worker.

Basically, it's reserved for people having authority over other people or people having authority with regard to the management of the inventory, like the checkers, the infamous checkers that we always talk about at the port of Montreal that were for a long time affiliated with the West End Gang—but that's old history.

Basically, of the 1,200 longshoremen working in the port, maybe 200 of them have security clearance because their jobs are not captured under the Transport Canada security clearance program.

[Anita Gill]

As for the Vancouver Fraser Port Authority, we have over 32,000 port passes, and only 7,000 of those are required to have security clearances.

As per the Transport Canada regulations, it's a requirement for everybody entering a cruise facility to have a security clearance. However, at container terminals, because of the way the regulations are written—certain roles and certain areas of the container terminal—that is how the container terminal determines who needs a clearance. It is through the guidance and the categories of people described by Transport Canada in the regulations. We are following the regulations on who can even apply.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Thank you.

We now have Ms. O'Connell, please, for five minutes.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here.

Mr. Bergeron, I want to start with you. Earlier, you said, in an answer to Mr. Caputo, that not many trucks are inspected at the port of Montreal by the CBSA.

On April 3, it was announced that over 600 stolen vehicles were recovered in an operation with the CBSA at the port of Montreal. A quick Google search shows that a 20-foot shipping container usually fits one, maybe two cars. A 40-foot container could maybe hold four cars. Therefore, if I take the largest containers, that would mean that about 150 containers, at least, were opened in that one operation.

I'm wondering if you could.... Are you involved in any of that? Are you aware of any of that, or was your statement earlier maybe that you wouldn't be aware of all the operational things that are happening?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

I'll clarify. When I answered the question earlier, it was on a random basis or targeted basis at the entrance of the port. I'm not aware of many verifications by customs or the CBSA.

They do, however, inspect containers when they've been declared, when they've been spotted or when whatever system they use guides them to inspect a container. They do open containers on a regular basis in a port, but whether it's for cars or drugs, we don't know. They put aside a certain number of containers each and every day, and they do the inspection on them.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Right. That's an important clarification because I think to leave out there to Canadians and to say that not many are being inspected is....

[Félixpier Bergeron]

No, they are inspected once they're targeted.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you.

You also spoke about increased tagging and technology. I'm curious what that actually looks like. You said that there would be free leases for partners who could come. What does that look like? I know you were limited in your time in your opening statement. I'm just curious about what that is.

[Félixpier Bergeron]

Basically, it's a system that's called Tag, but it's not related to the AirTag system of iPhones. It's a technology company that puts devices in the cars and can monitor their movement across the country everywhere. We had them install their own antenna in the port to assess whether there are reported stolen cars in the port so that they can direct the police to come and investigate.

Now we are in the process of adding more antennas so that they can pinpoint earlier and more precisely where the cars are. We've opened up the proposition to any other company that offers such a system.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you.

In response to Mr. MacGregor's question, you talked about some of the concerns around the technology for scanning every single container. We've heard about concerns in terms of timing and whatnot and how to find...and that's why we announced funding for additional study and research for other technology.

What we hadn't heard before are the concerns, from an employee standpoint, about the radiation of the scanning technology. You said that countries that do currently use this don't have human rights standards. What are some of those countries that use it? There are certain...even mayors and politicians, saying that this is the only thing needed. I think this is an important component.

[Félixpier Bergeron]

We've seen that technology being used especially in the Middle East and in that part of the world. Other countries do use that technology. We do use it in Montreal, and the CBSA uses it. The human aspect has to be removed from the area where the scanning is being done. That increases the time when everything is stopped. That's why we have to understand the technology better, and what the impact is on the fluidity of movement.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

They're not saying there isn't a place for scanning, but that this idea of setting up more scanners and scanning everything through is probably not necessarily feasible. Therefore, these other technologies would be important to do the same work, but without the human types of negative impacts and without slowing it down.

[Félixpier Bergeron]

If they do exist, we are open to them, but I need to assess them. A better option would be AI. That is one thing that could increase the success rates of detections.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you.

Very quickly, Ms. Gill, you mentioned the regulations under review, and some changes that you could see fit to make. I don't have time to ask what those are, but could you submit to the committee what some of those updated regulations could mean in terms of improving the ability for ports to work with us on this?

[Anita Gill]

Yes, I will take that away.

[Jennifer O'Connell, Liberal, Pickering—Uxbridge, ON]

Thank you.

I'm sorry. I didn't have time for a full question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

Ms. Michaud, please go ahead.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Bergeron, you said earlier that you were willing to consider different solutions. For example, your officers could perhaps have more latitude to open containers or conduct inspections as they see fit.

When I listen to you, I understand that are other authorities are involved. You often say that you do not have access to the information, whereas customs officers do, and that it is incumbent upon the police to take action. Do you feel like you are just a bystander? Would you rather have more responsibilities and be a player in the fight against organized crime?

I know that you already work with partners, but do you feel that it could be beneficial if the port authority had more responsibilities, or do you prefer to leave that to the police or the Canada Border Services Agency? How do you feel about that?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

We do not want to obtain the powers or authorizations of other authorities, but we want to be part of the process. We want to help in the best way we can.

There are some improvements that can be made to the process of obtaining and disclosing information so that we can pass it on. Currently, police officers cannot ask us for specific information because we do not have the status of police officers. If we could be part of the committees or part of the investigative processes to be able to pass on or get the information that these police officers need to conduct their investigations, it would probably help them a great deal. However, we are currently unable to help them because we have neither the right status nor access to the information they need, particularly the information on manifests. Only the Canada Border Services Agency has access to it, and they cannot talk to us.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I have a suggestion for committee members. I do not know if I can move it now or if I need to move a motion.

Most of the parties have asked questions on the same topic, and we have heard that Transport Canada handles the security screening of employees or people who have access to the ports. However, we have two meetings left, April 29 and May 2. On May 2, I see that the Minister of Public Safety has been invited. Could we also consider inviting the Minister of Transport, with his officials? They may be able to answer our questions on this topic?

I do not know if the committee likes the idea, but I am making that a suggestion. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Heath MacDonald]

That's fine. We can include that in the request.

Thank you. Ms. Michaud, your time is up.

Mr. MacGregor, please go ahead.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to go back to my line of questioning about when those 600 cars were discovered and when you worked your way back. How did the majority of those cars arrive at the port of Montreal? How was the container transported? Did they come by truck, or did some come by train?

[Félixpier Bergeron]

I don't have access to that information. I don't know how the containers got into the terminal.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I'm sorry. Doesn't the Montreal Port Authority know how each container arrives on its property?