Evidence of meeting #57 for Status of Women in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was care.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Carole Presseault  Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada
Louise Nesterenko  Fellow Certified General Accountant, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Committee members, we continue our study on the economic security of women.

We have today the last witnesses. I would like to thank the Certified General Accountants Association of Canada for coming at the last minute to do a presentation from the perspective of businesswomen and some of the barriers that businesswomen face in security.

I understand you have a presentation, Ms. Presseault, and that it is in English only. If anyone who wants to pick it up, it's at the back table. Ms. Presseault will be sending her presentation to the clerk so that it can be translated, and we will send it off.

Ms. Presseault, are you going to share your time, or are you doing a ten-minute presentation?

3:35 p.m.

Carole Presseault Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada

It is just five minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

We have to prepare drafting instructions as well. We would like to try to finish by 4:15.

Thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada

Carole Presseault

Thank you, Madam Chair.

We would like to thank committee members for accommodating us in the last few hours of this study.

We really appreciate the gesture. We understand you're moving on later today to the task of drafting your report. We're really pleased to participate in the process.

I should mention as we start that the Certified General Accountants Association of Canada has 68,000 members and students across Canada and internationally. We're particularly interested in the topic you're studying because women form the largest growing number of CGAs in Canada.

In Quebec, in fact, Madame Deschamps, it's very interesting to learn

that last year in Quebec, 60% of our new members were women.

In fact, in British Columbia two-thirds of our student population is female. So there is enormous growth in that area.

Your committee is examining an issue of fundamental importance for the well-being of Canada. As you know, and as you've learned across the weeks and weeks of hearings, many factors influence the economic security of women. In a country as prosperous as Canada, there are still far too many women living in poverty. The statistics—you've heard them through your study—are staggering. We commend you for seeking to find solutions to help resolve this very real problem.

The flip side, and the one, perhaps, we're looking at, and the one we're going to talk to you about today, is the fact that more and more women are joining the ranks of Canada's entrepreneurs. The number of women entrepreneurs has doubled in the last 15 years, and the number is growing at a pace 60% faster than that of their male counterparts.

The number is surprising. These women are amazing women. They are redefining work and redefining workplaces. They're creating jobs and they're creating prosperity. So when we talk about the SME sector in Canada being the engine of economic growth, we know that the majority behind making those engines run are women.

I have invited Louise Nesterenko, a fellow certified general accountant, a former chair of the board of CGA-Canada, and a woman entrepreneur in her own right. Louise is from Alberta. I'm speaking for her now, but she will speak for herself very shortly. At last count, she ran three businesses that employed 65 people plus an estimated 25 to 30 volunteers. I think it's the type of business that Louise runs that makes the difference. I guess she is an expert with an interest in turning a profit, but she's also interested in giving back to the community. One of the businesses she's set up, which she calls Books Between Friends, sells used books and miscellaneous items and returns all profits to local charities. This year, Books Between Friends will give in excess of $60,000 to local charities in Alberta.

There are a lot of Louises in Canada. Admittedly, perhaps not all are as successful as she is, but all of them aspire to be.

Given that Canada's economy, as I mentioned, and its continuing prosperity depend on small and medium-sized businesses, I think policy-makers, and you as a committee, need to pay attention to women like Louise. In preparing for today, we asked ourselves what these women would need to succeed. What would they need to make them more successful, and how can this House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women make a difference by bringing forth recommendations?

We looked at four aspects of it. This is not the first time we've looked at this. We looked at this a few years back when there was a Liberal caucus task force on women's entrepreneurship, and we looked at some of the issues.

The first one we looked at was access to funding, or access to capital. It still remains an issue for women entrepreneurs, but I'm told anecdotally that this side is improving, and Louise can speak to that point later on. There has always been sort of a stigma, a disadvantage for women, when building a credit rating. More importantly, I think, is that we need to help our daughters understand the importance of building good credit and of having sound financial management skills. I'll talk a bit about how the tax system can help in a minute.

The second point we'd like to leave with you today is that we need to provide women with access to education and training. Of course, education is the key to Canada's productivity. When I look at the paper released today by the Prime Minister and the Minister of Industry and the Minister of Finance on the new science and technology strategy, I see a lot of words here on education. I think there's a lot of inspiration here. In terms of women and supporting women's entrepreneurship, I think we need to target financial entrepreneurial education to women early on in their careers to allow them to acquire the knowledge and tools needed to build successful businesses.

We need to target the learning, and I think we need to target the learning around networks and women's networks. In that respect, the federal government has a good track record of creating centres of excellence. One of the proposals we want to leave with you today is the creation of centres of excellence on women's entrepreneurship.

A big point—again, Louise will speak to that a bit more later—is the issue of employment insurance and allowing women entrepreneurs to access employment insurance. They really face this sort of unique dilemma. As employers, they contribute financially to the EI program. But as individuals, as we know, they're unable to access the program. As the program expands beyond maternity benefits into issues like compassionate leave, women entrepreneurs are more and more disadvantaged.

Women are still primary caregivers. The numbers don't lie on that. We think that expanding the EI program is a necessary policy direction that we need.

On the issue of taxation, I think there has been some positive movement on the issue of small business generally, on the issue, for example, of increasing the small business threshold. But we think the tax system should be more supportive of entrepreneurship in many ways.

One of issues we'd like to leave with you as well is allowing increasing RRSP contribution limits and pensions. You've heard throughout your hearings that this is an important issue for women, especially as we all age. Also, the idea of accessing RRSP funds to serve as collateral for qualifying private ventures are strategies we think would make a difference. Add to that the idea of tax credits for supporting start-ups in innovative areas or tax credits for businesses that hire, train, and retrain women. Women are running these small and medium enterprises, they are creating jobs, they have an opportunity to hire, train, or retrain other women.

These are some of the issues we think the federal government can resolve. We think they're simple, but I think they're attainable.

We would be pleased to answer your questions.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Thank you very much.

Committee members, as I mentioned, we will be reviewing the guidelines for preparing our report, so we may go into one round and maybe a very short second round, so use your time wisely.

Ms. Minna, for seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for your presentation.

We've gone through this information before. There was the Prime Minister's task force on business, as you know, not too long ago, so some of the recommendations are similar to what you've made today with respect to employment insurance, for instance. One of the recommendations was to allow for voluntary opting in, and I think you were suggesting the same thing today.

At that time, when we discussed it, the actuarial officials said it was not feasible to do that. Given that kind of information, would you be open to mandatory participation for entrepreneurs with respect to EI? Or would you only look at the voluntary opting in or out?

The reason I'm asking is that the officials, when they appeared in front of the committee on a previous study on maternity benefits for self-employed workers in 2005, said it would not be feasible to allow people to opt into EI for special benefits.

3:40 p.m.

Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada

Carole Presseault

I think there are some precedents on the ability to opt in. I know in Alberta, entrepreneurs have the opportunity to opt into the workers' compensation program, so I think there's some history there, there are some precedents.

One-stop shopping or one solution won't help. You have a very diverse and very varied workforce, a different entrepreneurship cadre, at very different places in their lifespan, so I think you have to look at flexible policies, and opting in would provide the most flexibility.

There are opting-in provisions in the EI program already, for example, for family members or closely related members in terms of family-owned enterprises.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

That's true.

Would you be open to the mandatory if that were not possible? I'm trying to look at the spectrum.

3:40 p.m.

Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada

Carole Presseault

Mandatory versus opting, I think both could be debated. For now, our position is really opting in or opting out.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Ms. Nesterenko, would you like to—

3:45 p.m.

Louise Nesterenko Fellow Certified General Accountant, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada

I wanted to add, if I could, about the EI, that I think opting in is a good solution. I think there's another avenue with EI we could possibly look at, and it's to do with employed relatives. Right now, at ACC for example, seven members of my family work at ACC, who under the EI rules can be deemed as non-arm's-length. I think that you or someone could look at expanding the opportunity that allows employed relatives to also collect EI. Right now, they have to have a special ruling from the CRA. So if we could take EI and do it in two steps, look at opting in and look at the feasibility of allowing employees' relatives to collect EI.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

To go for a second to the pension and retirement aspect of things, you made reference to increasing the contribution to the RSP. I'm not sure—I was on the finance committee for quite some time, and for a while we looked at the usage of the RSP, and the upper level was increased not too long ago.

This was only a couple of years ago, and the problem was that the average Canadian only puts in maybe $2,000 to $3,000 a year. So raising the upper level doesn't necessarily help Canadians with pensions. I'm not sure whether, to what extent, and how many of these are self-employed women who in fact it would help, or whether it would only be those who have a higher income, as opposed to those in the median.

I'm not sure that this is a solution. At the time, I was not supportive of increasing it, because only about 10% of Canadians actually benefit and are able to use the full space.

In addition to the RSP, you looked at some other options, other designs, such as changing CPP, widening it in some way beyond that. I don't find it to be responsive enough to the needs of most women.

3:45 p.m.

Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada

Carole Presseault

Thank you.

I'll start on the RSP, and I'll turn to Louise on the CPP aspects.

You're correct regarding the RSP. But when it comes to RSP season, we read on every page—and it coincides with the time the federal budget comes out, so we're always reading the business pages of newspapers—that we're not putting enough money in the RSPs. But as you point out, we don't know who's not putting money in it.

There's still a knowledge or an information gap that would be worthwhile to see in terms of a policy. It would give the kind of effect we're looking for.

The second aspect of that is the ability to use RSP capital or funds to invest in certain kinds of enterprises. That would approach resolving some of the problems regarding access to capital.

The pension or CPP aspect of it is another dimension of the problem, and Louise has examined that.

3:45 p.m.

Fellow Certified General Accountant, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada

Louise Nesterenko

Yes, but can I go back to the RSP for a second?

When I try to develop something on my own, such as when we talked about EI, there's already a precedent set using WCB out in Alberta.

When I look at the RSPs and talk about helping business women access their RSPs to help start up, and help them for research and development, I was referring to being able right now to take out $20,000 to buy a house, which isn't taxed, and you pay it off over the next 20 years.

My vision for women is if they had an RSP and had access to it, this would help them invest in their companies and pay it back over time, or give an actual grace period. That's what I was referring to.

Can I talk about CPP?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Maria Minna Liberal Beaches—East York, ON

Sure, please.

3:45 p.m.

Fellow Certified General Accountant, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada

Louise Nesterenko

I'm sorry if I appear nervous; I've never done this before, so I have a banging headache.

I've gone through your past sessions regarding CPP. When you look at CPP and what can we do as a Canadian government to help foster, grow, and help our, as you say, elderly, I believe that CPP— If we could look at when you're married and your spouse dies, right now you're entitled to what's called a survivor's pension.

What I think would be a good solution or a vision for the future would be to look at removing the cap and allowing the spouse—We all know that women live longer than men. I can't give you the stats; I know I'm supposed to, but I can't. If we could look collectively at removing that cap and allowing the women to collect what their spouses made through their CPP, then that would alleviate them being the number one contributors to poverty. It would also help them live.

Again, we only had a week. I interviewed 20 women over the age of 65. I asked them all, why have you returned to work, and why are you working part-time? All 20 answered, number one, my pension does not cover my cost of living, so I have to supplement my income by working part-time.

In my mind, if they were married, and they only get their survivor's pension, if we could remove the cap and allow them access to that money, then they would be able to live a little easier, and it might decrease the poverty line.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Thank you.

Ms. Demers, you have seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Nicole Demers Bloc Laval, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank our witnesses for coming today. I am very pleased to see you and particularly to hear what you have to say. I have a great deal of respect for all women whose mathematical skills are better than mine, which is not that difficult.

I read very carefully some of your publications, such as, “Growing Up: The Social and Economic Implications of an Aging Population”. I also read a press release you put out on March 19, 2007 after the Conservative budget was tabled. In it, you seem to be satisfied with this budget.

Could you be a little more specific about the benefits of this budget for women entrepreneurs and for women generally, because I see nothing in the budget, as you were saying earlier, about employment insurance, maternity leave, bereavement leave, the pension plan and pay equity. So I am really wondering whether the budget was drafted without taking women into account. I'm having a little trouble understanding.

In the document entitled “Growing Up: The Social and Economic Implications of an Aging Population”, you say that the objective must be an effective harmonization of personal or private programs with public programs. How do you think this would be possible, in light of the difficulty some women have reconciling work and family life, and who very often have precarious or seasonal employment because of this problem? I want to understand better, and I'm sure you will be able to help me.

3:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada

Carole Presseault

Thank you for your question, Ms. Demers. It definitely touches on a number of rather complex areas. I must say that I would have liked to invite my colleague who wrote the report on pensions to join us, and I will not go into a great deal of detail about the conclusions of the report, because they are complicated and that is not really my area of expertise.

However, I would like to talk to you about the federal budget. It is true that when we looked at it, we saw that, like all budgets, it was a statement of the federal government's policies at a particular point in time. We are therefore looking at it on the basis of this point in time and the positions put forward then.

We were in favour of the budget, and gave it a passing mark, because we thought at that time there were a number of measures that could meet the needs of a large percentage of the population. Without being partisan in any way, I would say that this was a conservative budget.

When we looked at the budget at the time, we said that the measures it introduced for small businesses and families were acceptable. We had no criticism of the budget. This was all done in the context of reasonable and responsible financial policies. If there is a responsible financial context, investment is possible.

When we look at the issue today, we would be prepared to put forward some more specific measures in the next round of pre-budget consultations to assist women entrepreneurs, because you were quite right when you spoke about the precarious nature of women's jobs.

In my brief presentation, a number of points slipped in. Perhaps I could take one specific aspect. For example, the figures show that women are almost the drivers of small and medium-sized business, and that small business creates jobs. Let us look at what steps could be taken to help these women employers hire other women and help them at least deal with the issue of precarious employment, particularly for immigrant women or women returning to the labour market for all sorts of reasons. At the same time, let us look at what could be done in the area of employment insurance, for example, to help women entrepreneurs who also have to look after aging parents or children.

So, in six months, when we are preparing our next pre-budget presentation, we could look at a broader aspect of the problem. With this in mind, the committee's recommendations will definitely help us develop our positions.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Nicole Demers Bloc Laval, QC

Thank you very much.

In “Growing Up: The Social and Economic Implications of an Aging Population”, another idea is mentioned which I think is excellent. Once again, I'm no expert, but I am going to read the passage, because I think it is important we take into account the differences that exist in aging, particularly for women. The document states:

[Translation] The introduction of phased retirement reforms or adjustments to pension plans and other programs based on full-time employment or that contain disincentives to working beyond a certain age. If phased retirement became a reality or a significant option, the Income Tax Act would also have to be amended, because it does not allow wage earners to contribute to employer plans and receive benefits under the plans at the same time.

Do you think there are some specific changes that could be made that would help women in particular, have a better retirement?

3:55 p.m.

Vice-President, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Certified General Accountants Association of Canada

Carole Presseault

Yes, definitely. I think one of the measures announced in the federal budget increased to 71 the age to which people can contribute to RRSPs. This would make a phased retirement possible or allow people to contribute longer.

This touches on the problem referred to by my colleagues about these women to whom she has been speaking in recent weeks who have to return to the labour market. This would be a way for them to have a phased retirement. These are things that could be done. We need to look more specifically at measures in light of current economic data in order to...

Thank you for reading this recommendation.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Nicole Demers Bloc Laval, QC

I think it is important and I think the work you do is also very important.

Do I have any time left, Madam Chair?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Ten seconds.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Nicole Demers Bloc Laval, QC

I would like to thank all those witnesses.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi

Merci.

Ms. Smith, for seven minutes.