Status of Women Committee on Nov. 16th, 2010

[Michelle Simson, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you, Dr. Fellegi.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Now I'll go to Madame Brunelle, from the Bloc.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, Mr. Fellegi. You are being quoted at great length today. Your data is recognized. You are saying some interesting things, including the fact that underprivileged groups do not answer the questions. But, in my opinion, with the voluntary questionnaire, the short-form questionnaire, they will answer them even less. So the results will be distorted.

You are saying that the data could be skewed, but we would like to know which data and to what extent. We will find out later, in a few years.

We are just wondering. In your opinion, why have we decided to opt for the voluntary short-form questionnaire? Is the government really saving money, or, as AFEAS said, are organizations rather being deprived of reliable data that would allow them to move forward with their demands?

[Dr. Ivan Fellegi]

I cannot, of course, speculate. I wasn't there, and even if I had been there, I wouldn't be allowed to speculate about why the decision was made, so I am in no position.

I can make two comments, though, on your question.

First, it certainly wasn't to save money, because my understanding is that this exercise ends up costing $30 million more and results in a great deal less usable data. It certainly was not to save money.

The other little point I want to make is that, as you mentioned, we might find out years from now whether the data are biased. I'm afraid we might not find out even then, because bias is inherently not knowable. Some bias we will know, because there will be contradictory information from independent sources, but much of the bias will be hidden. That's just in the nature of bias.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Since governments change, the long-form questionnaire could come back with questions on unpaid work too. There would then be sort of a gap between the collected data and the new results. Could we then conduct accurate studies showing the change in data or would we always be stuck with this hole, this period of a few years during which our data were not reliable, even non-existent?

[Dr. Ivan Fellegi]

With your permission, being a long-term public servant and really, truly, non-political, I would not comment on the political side of the question. But it is quite appropriate for the government to determine the content of the census, and whichever government is in power has and will determine the content.

When I spoke out about the voluntary long-form census, it was not about whether or not the government has the right to decide what should get in the census, but whether it is inappropriate for any government to tell Statistics Canada how to do a survey, because that is a technical issue, and there is a long tradition, including United Nations resolutions, about the technical side of statistics having to be free of government interference. That is the only issue on which I spoke out. I am in total agreement with the tradition and the law that governments determine the content of the census. A political judgment goes into it, and that is entirely appropriate.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Do I still have time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have two and a half minutes.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you. That will allow me to talk to Ms. Duval.

I would also like to recognize Ms. Jackson for her work. In my view, the fact that university women are willing to help other women is a great commitment.

I would like to congratulate AFEAS on all its efforts to achieve equality between men and women. We are very concerned today. As we know, equality between men and women includes women's financial independence.

Ms. Duval, by thinking about all the statistics on unpaid work, about all the work that you did, we could say that not being able to access these statistics would be a major loss. We only have to think about children and caregivers. Women do two-thirds of this work. Caregivers' work will increase because of the aging population.

How do you plan on moving the major issue of unpaid work forward?

[Céline Duval]

As part of the latest statistics in Quebec, experts estimate the contribution of women to home care at 130 million hours per year or about $5 billion in home care for the elderly. Women provide 80% of this care. But without a census, we will not know what will come of the situation in five years. The statistics we currently have are from the last census. They tell us that 80% of people who have an unrecognized, invisible job are women. That is a significant proportion.

What can we do as an organization? We are an organization dedicated to raising awareness, which is why we try to change the way people think, including the way politicians think. That is why we are here today.

This work is much more than doing laundry and cleaning. It has to do with providing care and medication, making appointments and learning the proper techniques to help people. That is well beyond what we used to call domestic labour. By discharging many people from hospitals, we force people who stay home to acquire knowledge that does not come naturally. That is why AFEAS does not use the neutral word “caregiver”, we specify the gender. Learning all those techniques does not actually come as naturally as we might think.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

Now I will go to Madame Boucher for the Conservatives.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Good morning, everyone. Thank you for coming to meet with us today.

As you know, the debate about whether it is better to use a long-form or short-form questionnaire, mandatory or voluntary, is not new. As a woman and single mother of two grown-up girls, I was sometimes bothered by some of the questions. But that's just my personal opinion.

I have a letter here, which is not from the governing party, but from people who asked themselves the same question. It is written in English and addressed to the former Minister of Industry, Mr. Bernier. I am going to read you an excerpt:

Dear Minister Bernier:

I have received a few letters of complaint from constituents concerning the length and detail of the 2006 census.

They are primarily concerned with the great detail of personal information they are required to fill out and therefore potential invasion of privacy.

We did not write that. A number of MPs asked themselves those questions.

This summer, when the government decided to have a voluntary census, some people called me because they didn't understand the difference between census and survey. We know that it is possible to get data from surveys. In fact, we often receive surveys at home, and you know as well as I do that we can get data from sources other than a census. For some people, a census is often just a way to find out where you come from and who you are.

I have a question for you. There were questions in the 2006 census that were marked as mandatory or voluntary. For example, if we want to know whether an individual studied a language other than the one spoken at home, is that a mandatory or voluntary question?

Can we tell the difference? Do most people who answer know whether the answers to these questions are mandatory or voluntary? I, Sylvie Boucher, would personally—not as an MP, but as a woman—decline to answer some of the questions, not because I do not want to fill out the census, but because I feel my privacy is being invaded. But I am very comfortable with the new questionnaire. I have a copy of the new 2011 census here. As human beings, we are actually always afraid when something new comes along.

How can we know if these data will be useful or not? To my knowledge, people often feel obligated to answer if it is mandatory. But if it is voluntary, how can we know that people won't answer the questions?

[Céline Duval]

Would you like me to answer?

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Yes, please. That is why I am asking you the question, Madam.

[Céline Duval]

We are sure that a segment of the population will not answer because those people are not sufficiently knowledgeable. Let's call them “illiterate”, shall we? So they will not fill out the form.

Immigrants will not necessarily answer if the form is not in their language or if there is no translation with the questionnaire.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

So you are saying that, even if it is mandatory, there won't be more people answering it.

[Céline Duval]

They will answer, because when it is mandatory, there is someone who will help them to fill out the form.

I've already been involved in the census, and, when someone is not able to fill out the form, we provide volunteers to help them.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Oh, really?

[Céline Duval]

Yes. I was a volunteer myself, so I know that it's being done. It is possible that we might find it long at first. It is true that there is a big difference between eight questions and 80 or so questions. That does not take the same amount of time.

But we must often pay people to do the public or social surveys. So a non-profit organization where funding was cut—including the $100,000 by Status of Women Canada last year—cannot afford to conduct a survey.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

All right.

By the way, there are not just eight questions, but there are a lot more in the 2011 form.

[Céline Duval]

But we haven't seen the 2011 form, have we?

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I have it right here.

It is interesting to hear you say that, when the form is mandatory, someone will help people to fill it out.

[Céline Duval]

Yes.

[Sylvie Boucher, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

So, if someone wants to fill it out, not because it is mandatory, but because it is private and they want to answer, there won't be anyone to help them to fill it out?