Status of Women Committee on Nov. 29th, 2012

[Charles Vézina]

A complaint that is unreceivable does not meet the standards of the definition of harassment, and therefore we can't receive it as such. It doesn't mean we don't deal with the situation as warranted.

Regarding a founded complaint—

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

I am sorry, but I have to stop you there. Ms. Ambler's time is up. I have already stretched it out a bit so that you can answer. Thank you.

We will now go to Ms. Sgro.

You have seven minutes.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

I had the same line of questioning. Would you complete the answer to Ms. Ambler's question?

[Charles Vézina]

Yes. Of those complaints that met the test of receivability and that were sent to investigation by external third parties in our department, which is the approach, 13 were determined to be unfounded, that is, after a fulsome investigation and interrogation of the parties, not to meet the standards of harassment. Three of those were determined to be founded or partially founded after the investigative process.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

If the complaint is unfounded, you have an employee who feels.... A lot is perception. A lot of us are getting used to being criticized and all the rest of it, and we just have to suck it up; that's just the way life is. There are a lot of people—men and women—who aren't able to do that through no fault of their own, but just because of their own sensitivities.

If a claim was unfounded, what was done? Was it just, “Your complaint is not founded. Goodbye and thank you very much”, or do you actually go one step further and try to change the attitude in that particular department or of this particular person? Is it just because it doesn't meet your terminology? You have an employee who's feeling that way. What gets done about it, anything?

[Marielle Doyon]

Usually this is why we will try, first of all, to resolve it at the informal level and to have that discussion with the two proponents. Then if they want to continue, we'll continue. We will try to have a dialogue as we go. As we said, we'll also try to intervene in the workplace to make sure that at the group level there's sensitization done, because usually it's not just one person versus another person, but there's a group that will be affected. If there is a specific topic—because it's not that we are talking about harassment or even sexual harassment, because it's all the same—we'll try to have a focused intervention with the group. This is what we'll try to do.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

With all the training and other things we hear from a variety of departments, and with your six steps, my goodness, how could we ever have a problem anywhere? All the steps seem to be in place.

However, if you look at the RCMP, in their chain of command and all of that, they have all the same things, yet there are some significant problems there.

[Marielle Doyon]

Yes.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

It's practice. It's clear there are some good things happening, in DFAIT in particular. You had 18 complaints in 2007-08, and they've gone down considerably, so somewhere someone's doing something right. Again it's a lot about establishing an attitude and that kind of leadership from the top down as to what's acceptable and what isn't.

The fact is that here we are, in 2012, doing this study specifically because of the issues that were raised with the RCMP that really have shaken our confidence at the federal level, which I think should be the exemplary employer for the country, and in many cases it is. DFAIT has a particularly difficult job with having missions abroad dealing with a multitude of different people from different backgrounds.

I want to get on to the issue of when people in a mission or in a department observe bullying or intimidating behaviour. Can an employee say something? In my opinion, if I were to see that happen, I would mention to someone that maybe they should change their behaviour. Prior to there being a complaint, do you allow someone else to indicate to a senior manager that the behaviour of a particular manager to a staff member is not acceptable and that maybe somebody should be talking to that manager? Do you have enough flexibility in the system to do that?

[Marielle Doyon]

Not only do we encourage it, but it is what we are trying to do with our dialogue and our prevention strategy. We try to establish a climate where really this dialogue is encouraged and is permitted, and where there is no fear. We try to make sure that our employees are well equipped to have that dialogue, and they are able to put it into words, because quite often it's difficult. Talking about these things is not easy, and it's not easy also for our managers. That's why we are trying to equip our managers to receive that kind of complaint, to be able to talk to their colleagues, if it's their colleagues, or maybe at more senior levels to have that dialogue and to be able to defuse what's happening, and to talk about the facts, and to not escalate it to a formal complaint.

That is what we are trying to avoid. Maybe that's why we have very few formal complaints. We are really trying to avoid them, because usually no one wins in the end. Even the complainant will not win, because it will not restore their confidence. You don't win at that. Usually, it's a long process and people will suffer through it. That's why as soon as we hear about it we try to intervene. It can be through an informal conflict resolution process. It can be through our EOAP that we try to help people. It can be through our labour relations management. It can be just in our management day to day.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Ms. Langan-Torell, would you like to add some comments from the DFAIT perspective?

[Pat Langan-Torell]

I think Madam Doyon expressed it perfectly.

I would say it's exactly the approach we are taking. Prevention is key, and sensitization to those issues, and that spirit of openness so that people feel they can come forward. Even if it's not directed at them, they feel that they can consult and see if anything can be done.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

How many women are employed at DFAIT? Do you know offhand?

[Pat Langan-Torell]

I don't. I'm sorry, I wish I did. The numbers must be quite high, actually.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Maybe you could get those numbers for us.

[Pat Langan-Torell]

We will, yes.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Ms. Doyon, do you know how many women you have?

[Caroline Weber, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services and Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

As of September 30, we're estimating about 60%. Of our total workforce, 57.9% is female.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

How much of that is in senior management?

[Caroline Weber]

It's 44.2%, which is above the availability rate in the labour market. We're pretty much above the labour market availability rates, except in a very technical area with a very small number of people, where we're missing—

[The Chair, NDP, Marie-Claude Morin]

Unfortunately, I have to stop you there, Ms. Weber. Thank you very much.

We will now proceed to the second round of questions. We will have time for one speaker only, I believe.

Ms. Bateman, this time it really is your turn. You have five minutes.

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My thanks to all the witnesses.

Your efforts and your work are really impressive. I am also very moved to see that both your organizations are focusing on prevention, which is a key aspect.

I am so happy to see that. We're so impressed with all of the witnesses who have come and the work that is being done.

Madam Doyon, I'm very interested in what you're saying. I'm particularly interested in the fact that Madam Langan-Torell's department has taken the umbrella, if you like, of the federal government from Treasury Board and has then tailor-made it to a unique situation, because there are many men and women in the public service of Canada who are in unique situations. Yours is very obvious, but equally there are people serving up north or on boats. I'm very interested in the fact that you have that flexibility and that you've embraced that flexibility.

You spoke about having developed five core values. My understanding is that there is a code of values and ethics for the Government of Canada, the public service of Canada writ large. You have fine-tuned that and focused in on five core values.

Would you be kind enough to share those with us? Of course respect is one.

[Pat Langan-Torell]

They're very much based on the core values from Treasury Board. They set them and we implement them. The tailoring for us comes more in how they're applied to our unique situation—

[Joyce Bateman, Conservative, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

In the application—

[Pat Langan-Torell]

—though we have added stewardship, I think.