Status of Women Committee on May 7th, 2014

[Heather Kennedy]

It's a very good point about women in the trades, and it's really a missed opportunity to date.

I do think that one of the best ways is actually to get into the high school system. Around junior high school age is the age where the research shows that young women start to differentiate themselves from the sciences and also some of the more practical nature of work. Programs and policies that allow for education of diversity, particularly around the trades, at that time is very important. I think of introducing courses for young women that might include a week in a welding shop, a week in an automotive shop; those types of things are unbelievably valuable.

Bring your kids to school day is a program that can be very positive, but it has not had a lot of traction at the moment, and it's unfortunate because allowing a young woman to see how much fun it is to be a welder or a pipefitter or some other electrical trade is really quite critical.

I think as you move along through that, keeping the opportunity for them to be exposed to role models through high school is very critical. Who are the tradeswomen who can come into the school and be with them and take them to their shops? It's very important.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Okay. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Very good.

Thank you very much, Mr. Young. That was very interesting.

Mrs. Sellah, you have the floor. You have five minutes.

[Djaouida Sellah, NDP, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Kennedy, as I listened to you talking about your resumé, I was really impressed. I think a colleague of mine mentioned that already. You said that you had never started a job earning less than a man.

How did that come about? In the course of our study, we have heard testimony from a number of women who said that they began their careers earning salaries that were 70% those of the men. One of them said that perhaps it was because women do not know how to properly sell the skills they have. I would like to know what your impression is.

[Heather Kennedy]

I'm absolutely aware of any number of circumstances on the data around salaries for women being significantly less than those for men, but I would say that when you're working in a resource sector, which is a heavily unionized environment and a very structured salary environment, there's no room for that. You arrive and you're in a particular salary band for your experience, and you're paid on your merits. That's always been my experience.

I think that structure is very helpful. What I will say is very true is that when it comes to seeking credit for accomplishments or for the kind of pay that is variable based on performance, you do see a gap because, as you've just said, female employees tend to be less inclined to blow their own horn and talk about the great work that they have done. They're much more inclined to say, “Look what the team has produced”, and not feel inclined to go ask. I would say there is some variability there that's quite culturally ingrained, even at Suncor.

[Djaouida Sellah, NDP, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I have another question about your career that piqued my curiosity.

You said that you were a metallurgical engineer and then you moved to the oil and gas sector. I ask the question because, before I came here as an immigrant, I was a doctor in a major oil company in my country of birth. So I know the sector very well.

If I go by what is written here, my impression is, and correct me if I am wrong, that you have held more administrative positions than positions that required you to be in the field. Is that the case?

[Heather Kennedy]

It's actually quite half and half. The first half of my career were all line roles. They were all either foreman roles or very much in the field in the operations and the plant roles. The second half of my career has been more administrative.

I actually have considered it to be development. I have no problem being very direct and running an organization and being very accountable for short-term results. I actually now find it much more fun to be able to take a company like Suncor and, without any authority, actually influence decisions. For me it's been part of my personal career development to move from being part of the line and in the operating roles, into the roles that are much more strategic, require much more finesse, and require you to give advice that people take.

[Djaouida Sellah, NDP, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

My observation is that women do not go directly into leadership roles without some prior experience, whereas men can go directly into decision-making roles, such as the ones you have held.

[Heather Kennedy]

I think you're quite right. I think our natural inclination is, as Ms. Day also mentioned, to want to be advisers, to want to support. I think it's a bit of who we are.

I will say that for companies that do make a point of putting females in leadership roles, it's extraordinary what happens, really.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much.

Ms. Crockatt has the floor for five minutes.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you very much.

It's a pleasure to have you both here.

Ms. Day, I don't know you yet, but thanks for being here.

Ms. Kennedy, thank you so much for coming. I know you from Calgary and I know that you have a great amount of expertise to offer.

I want to pick up on one of the things you said earlier, that women have made the resource sector a better workplace. I think that statement might come as a surprise to people. This is partly about confidence, too, because one of the things that might keep women back, I'm hearing, is that they may not have the confidence that they can do the job and be successful. Not only that, you're sort of saying that they can make the workplace better. Can you elaborate on that? How can women actually make the workplace better in an industry that's considered to be male dominated, like the resource sector?

[Heather Kennedy]

I think in several ways. First I would say that any group that has diversity will make better decisions because they bring different perspectives. Certainly any group that I've been part of with different cultures and different genders has always made better decisions. I think the research supports that, so I think there is that piece.

I think when you bring women to the workforce, particularly in the resource sector, if you take the oil sands as an example, they tend to look at the environmental issues and the social issues quite differently than men do. They tend to create companies that I think are far more aware of some of the social currents going on in a community. As with many northern mining communities, the mine is the community and vice versa, so they create a very strong linkage between the community and the company. That's another area that they do.

Also, it's an interesting bit of information, but we've experienced this at Suncor. Our statistics confirm that on our heavy haulage trucks, the ones operated by women actually tend to be less damaged than those operated by men. I think we just bring that touch along to the equipment and the work that we do.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I heard somewhere that there are more women, or that women are preferred drivers of those huge monster trucks that everybody likes to have their pictures taken next to. Is that correct?

[Heather Kennedy]

That is correct.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay.

I think this might be my last question. I know our time is drawing short here.

If I am taking what both of you have said here today, I'm kind of struck by the fact that both of you seem very pragmatic leaders. I'm sure you are competitive, but you don't wear your competitiveness as the first thing that we see. You both come across as very direct and straightforward problem solvers.

I wonder how we can teach our girls from a young age how to do that. We've heard, “Get them a tool kit; get them into public speaking.” But if each of you had one thing.... Perhaps I'll start with Ms. Day because we've already heard from Ms. Kennedy a bit.

Ms. Day, I don't know if you're a mom and have a daughter or not, but what advice would you give?

[Christine Day]

I am a mother of three, and my daughter is now 25 and starting her own family. The advice I gave her was, “Don't be a satellite to anyone else.” It means having your own life and being your own person with your own dreams, your own goals, and your own ambition. Live that goal and then you're more interesting, more self-confident, more self-assured. Choose to serve others, whether it's your family, your boyfriend, or whoever, but young women in particular need to see themselves as their own person in their own right with the same rights and entitlements as anybody else to happiness, to a career, and to choice in their life.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Ms. Kennedy.

[Heather Kennedy]

I, too, am the mother of a daughter, who is 28. She's a manager of a bank branch. It's quite fun when she phones me for some management advice these days. So I'm getting a bit smarter as it goes.

My advice to her was what I talked about earlier, which is that—and I think, Ms. Day, you also mentioned it—in this day and age she has choices, and she shouldn't go for equality. She should go for equal opportunity, and she should do what she wants with those opportunities.

My other piece of advice is around.... She's very familiar with the phrase “dancing with fear”, just being brave enough to be out there taking challenges and to fail. Frankly, if you don't fail, you're not trying. That would be my most motherly advice to my daughter.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Day—

[Christine Day]

I have to laugh. I call it—

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Ms. Day, could you repeat what you just said? I think I jumped in.

[Christine Day]

It's all right. It was my fault.

I also call it living on the edge of myself. Very similar to Ms. Kennedy, I have my own phrase about fear, which is making sure that you're living on the edge of what you're comfortable with. I think it works.

My daughter also runs her own business. I think that passing on this confidence, the leadership message, does make a difference for the next generation.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much.

You made my job a little bit difficult. I was so interested in the testimony that it was difficult for me to cut the time on our meeting.

Thank you, members, for very interesting questions and a very interesting exchange.

Our next meeting is on Monday, same time, same place, with four guests.

Meeting adjourned.