Status of Women Committee on May 7th, 2014

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Thank you.

Ms. Kennedy, go ahead.

[Heather Kennedy]

I would absolutely support what Ms. Day says.

At Suncor, we follow two models. The first is at our head office in Calgary, where we provide a day care called the Pumpkin Patch, and so for employees located there, it's physically available to them. We've taken a different approach, as you can imagine, in many of our remote sites in Fort McMurray or farther away. We've chosen to provide funding and support to private sector providers of child care, but we do recognize the importance of that kind of security.

The other thing we've done in our 24-hour, seven-day-a-week operation in Fort McMurray is we've created a lot of options for shift workers. For example, if you're a shift worker and so is your spouse, we'll allow you to choose whether you'd like to be on the same shift, a completely opposite shift, or something in between so that you can best accommodate your child care preferences. That's been extremely helpful up at our oil sands operation.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Thank you.

Ms. Kennedy, you mentioned the challenges to people who work in northern and remote areas. In fact, I represent northern Manitoba where there are many people who work in the resource-based sector, mining, in particular, and where child care is a huge issue. Of course, it has a disproportionate impact on women and in many cases takes them out of the job market entirely.

I want to share one piece that relates entirely to women in the trades and the connection to child care. In 2010 the status of women committee conducted a study on women in non-traditional employment. Sadly, almost none of the recommendations that were given in the report were followed by the government, including this one:

The Committee recommends that in consultation with the provinces and territories the federal government fund an affordable nationally coordinated early learning and child care program in provinces and territories where one does not already exist and ensure equal federal funding for early learning and child care programs already administered by a province or territory.

Given the needs in northern and remote areas and the fact that there aren't corporations everywhere that are willing to make these kinds of commitments or the kind of economic development that would allow for these kinds of commitments, do you see—and perhaps this is for both of you, it's not just something that affects the northern regions—the federal government playing a role? Is there a role for the public sector in creating a national child care program that would increase the number of women in business, in the trades, and frankly, in all kinds of employment no matter where they live in our country?

[Heather Kennedy]

I could go first.

I'm not qualified to answer the question on the merits of a national child care program. As my own personal experience, I actually was in a mining town that did not have child care and I had to sort of be on my own when my children were very young. It's very important, though, that we have a federal look at child care and the best choices. I couldn't say whether it's a public sector program or support for the private sector or done through the school systems, which you see such a great deal of these days.

I'm sorry I can't assist you on the question, but I can be absolutely supportive that a look that says equal opportunity is better for Canada and better for the economy and one of the best ways to deliver that in terms of child care is very important.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Thank you.

Ms. Day.

[Christine Day]

I would definitely agree that we have to provide options however it's funded. I believe that it's in the best interests of business to participate in solving these problems that do affect our employment base and how long people can stay in the employment base.

We had one worker who was married to somebody who moved to a remote area in B.C. We literally just let her work at home, and we carried her around on an iPad and put her in meetings. She was able to continue to work. She worked from home in a remote location. I think there are far more creative solutions if we think outside the box as business and in the federal government. There are so many technology solutions now that make it easy for workers to work remotely from home.

In the child care situations, I think there are so many different options for us. I think the schools are a good option, if we can fund more before and after school care, and I think that also addresses the opportunity to feed children who might not get fed otherwise.

I think our participation as companies in helping fund those programs, whether it's through taxes or other things, is a critical piece in solving the family crisis that I think is coming in front of us.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Ambler, you have seven minutes.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to both of our witnesses today for your very interesting testimony and for contributing to our study in this substantial way.

Ms. Day, I want to say that personally, I and my daughter are two of the reasons that Lululemon was so profitable under your watch and continues to be, so I thank you for that.

I really appreciated the philosophy that surrounded the company. In fact, when I speak to some groups, I often will quote one of the sayings that was on the bag: Do something every day that scares you a little bit. Sometimes, I think, as women maybe we're not told that you just have to jump in, even if it's not something you're immediately comfortable with. I think you both have indicated that sometimes you just have to do it even if you're not 100% sure you'll be successful or even if it's difficult.

I want to ask you about the kinds of things that do scare women and how they can overcome those obstacles.

[Christine Day]

I'd be happy to start with that.

I think number one is still public speaking for most people. Very early on in our leadership courses we teach public speaking. We did at Lululemon, and I'm actually arranging my first one here for my teams at Luvo. I think that's a very important skill, and part of leadership: learning to present, to sell yourself, and to sell ideas.

The second that I found in careers for women is the confidence to take on line roles, not staff roles. By line roles, that would be the head of operations, or running the sales or the business unit side, rather than just a staff role side; so, early on in the career, getting people, particularly in a retail environment, running a store, and valuing the leadership and the things that it takes to run people, run your guest experience, develop teams, do your marketing, that general management experience.

To be a CEO, the biggest barrier for most people is that you have to have 15 years of operations experience, and women often get rotated into staff positions. It's more comfortable. You're an adviser. You're not on the front line. You're not the one responsible for making the decisions.

The earlier we can intervene and get line experience, particularly for women, and the training and the confidence building around making those decisions—being the actual leader—is so critical. That is very scary and intimidating for a lot of women.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you so much.

I'm not sure if you wanted to comment on that as well, on the scary question.

[Heather Kennedy]

I would just add that I use an expression—it's a Tony Robbins expression—that talks about “dancing with fear”. I think one of the barriers for women is to actually be bold enough to dance with fear. To move from where you are today to being an empowered senior leader in the resource sector, there's going to be some very scary moments for you. It's having the support to do that. At Suncor, we run some training called “taking the stage”, which really helps women empower themselves and be assertive, or public speaking and that sort of thing. It's really, how do you find the strength to actually be brave enough to take that first step?

One of the barriers that I would add to the ones that Ms. Day mentioned was family. It continues to be for young women entering the workforce or older women: Is this the right thing? What does my husband think? What does my other spouse think? What are my children going to think? My mother is still saying certain things. So a barrier, and a thing to be afraid of, is to actually step away from your family's values to do something that's important to you as an individual as well.

[Stella Ambler, Conservative, Mississauga South, ON]

Thank you for mentioning that.

We're all judged in some way. It brings to mind the Google CFO—Ms. Kennedy, you mentioned maternity leave—being the first executive to take maternity leave. I think it was Google. She took such a short maternity leave and she was just lambasted in the media for what should have been a very personal choice, I think. These are the kinds of considerations women have to take into account that men don't.

Thank you for mentioning the obstacle of public speaking. I think for most leadership roles, for men and women, some form of public speaking or giving presentations is always involved. Certainly, as elected politicians, obviously, it's part of our everyday lives as well.

The other thing I think that women need, and sometimes need help with, is developing and expanding their networks. I know that, because I got started at such a young age in politics as a volunteer. I was able to develop networks of friends, supporters and volunteers, and that turned into campaign volunteers and donors.

How do women in other fields, like business, develop their own personal networks?

[Christine Day]

That's an excellent point. It's something that in coaching I received great advice on, and that I would pass on to the committee. I valued getting the work done and thought that I would be judged on the quality of my work very early on in my career. The reality is you're judged on the quality of your relationships and ultimately, your ability to lead others through relationships. It isn't just about the work of the work and getting things done; it is about creating those networks. When you start to be promoted inside an organization, it's very rarely your boss that has a say solely by themselves when you get to a certain level; it's an executive committee, through succession planning. You have to build relationships throughout a whole organization.

I think the whole ability to build networks and relationships is critical to your career. Women can sometimes see that, strangely enough, as brown-nosing or politics, and they can be afraid of that, as opposed to that it's actually respect—respect for yourself and respect for your peers. Coaching around how to build a network, the why to build a network, and the value that it brings to you in your professional career is, I think, a very critical part of leadership development that needs some thought.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much.

Hopefully, we will have a chance to come back to that question.

Madam Fry, you have seven minutes.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to say that, after listening to Heather Kennedy speak, I actually followed an easy path to where I am today. I never had to face any of those barriers because I was a woman.

I want to ask you, for women who go into non-traditional professions like yours, engineering, what are the barriers they face? I didn't face barriers, because I don't think women in medicine face many barriers, either in university or elsewhere. In response to what the other witness said, I found, in fact, that the quality of the work is what they judge you on in medicine. In terms of women in non-traditional occupations, and not just professions, but occupations, what challenges are you hearing from them that they face.

If you are a strong and confident women, you can push open the door, walk in and say, “I'm here.” For other women, this is a difficult thing to do because they lack the confidence. They don't know how to do it. Now if you're in a company like Luvo, you're obviously getting that kind of coaching and training. But before you get there, how do women in non-traditional occupations and professions find their way to pushing that door open and having the confidence?

What are their challenges, that you found?

[Heather Kennedy]

One of the earliest barriers actually comes when you want to apply for a job. Right away, you look at a resumé. In the case of the resource sector, certainly in the earlier days it would be a man reading the resumé and he would look for experience that was very clear to him, very mine-focused, that type of thing.

One of the biggest barriers is actually having your resumé read and then going into an interview. It might be a panel interview, as in my case, with seven gentlemen, who are all well-intentioned, grilling me on my capability and my skills. That can be very intimidating. It can be a barrier. You can see why you might not even want to apply.

The other barrier for the resource sector is that it's perceived to be long hours, hard work, and remote locations. Often, women will say to themselves, “Why do I want to bother?” The industry needs to demonstrate the opportunities and how rewarding it can be, and how flexible it can be.

I would say the last barrier has probably gone away. My experiences now are that if you come and you bring competent work and you're highly skilled, you're valued. That has really changed in the generation in the engineering sector. It's very nice to see.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Because this is a parliamentary committee, my other question is whether there is anything that you see Parliament, parliamentarians, or government doing in terms of public policy and public programs that might assist women in non-traditional occupations and non-traditional professions to move forward and to be able to take those first steps to overcome the barriers that you know they face.

[Heather Kennedy]

I think so. I think the policy around understanding the importance of child care, I think is a critical one that we have spoken of already. I think there are tools that can be provided at Canada job centres and other places that really assist in making resumés that are, perhaps, more well-rounded, that really assist in terms of the interview process to put them through their paces in a relatively safe environment, so they have a much better chance of success.

I think there's public policy in terms of encouraging and creating focus for women in trades, in particular to ask, “Have you created the spaces at this institution for females?” It's that type of thing. Those policies...I'm not a supporter of targets, but I am a supporter of Parliament and government being able to create focus for women to have the space created for them to get into those non-traditional roles.

I guarantee that when they're in those roles, you'll be able to sit back and smile, because they will succeed and they will make the resource sector a better workplace.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Those are excellent points. Thank you so much. You're very focused.

See what happens when you ask a woman how to do something? She tells you the real answer.

I want to ask one final question. Looking at the fact that we have so many women who want to do flex work at home, how does a woman focus at home? Again, one would say if you're working at home, you don't need child care. But how does a women focus at home for x hours a day, if she has a very small child who's demanding her attention? Do you see some sort of way that a woman who is working at home could have the ability to hire someone and get that as a tax deduction in some way, as an employee, for instance?

Do you think that's an important thing to do?

[Heather Kennedy]

Maybe Ms. Day would be better to answer that. I personally never worked from home because I could never do it. I could never focus. Maybe your suggestion is a very good one.

[Christine Day]

I don't know if having an employee is tax deductible, but I think maybe continuing to have a day care tax credit, regardless of how you use that, would be a good practice, as would allowing that to be used for home care, and not just for day care at a centre or something. It would be something to explore. It's a good idea.

I have actually worked from home. I do have three children, and I did participate at one time, when my daughter was young, working three days from home and two days at the office. I had to get work done. It is hard when you're trying to balance that, but I found that by working in the evenings and just being flexible in my hours to deliver my work, as opposed to having to do it within set times, I was able to accommodate the workload at home by working with my husband.

[The Chair, NDP, Hélène LeBlanc]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Young, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Witnesses, thank you very much for your time today.

I want to start with Christine Day.

I think you have great ideas, and I'm sure you've proven to be successful with regard to public speaking skills for young employees, young women learning how to sell their ideas and sell themselves, and serving in line roles instead of staff roles.

I want to give you a couple of minutes to talk about anything you might not have had a chance to say yet about how we can encourage young women to consider entrepreneurship as a career choice starting early on. I'm thinking even as early as in elementary school. I don't know if they teach young women about entrepreneurship, and plant the seed that they could run their own business one day, or they could run their organization. Do you have any thoughts on that in the early stages, at elementary and secondary schools?

[Christine Day]

I do, actually, and I've written some notes on that.

What an entrepreneur does is solve problems. They see an insight in a market. There can be teaching at a very early age on problem solving and ideas, and on how you create a market out of those ideas. There are some really great business models that are starting to be formed, whether it's eBay or Etsy, or other things, where people who make crafts can sell them. Even young girls are making crafts like bracelets and weavings.

There could be class projects and workshops, either in school or after school, to teach people how to make and market even very simple craft items through an Etsy-type platform. They could be taught by maybe a local business person who could coordinate with them on selling and making a market so that at a very early age they would start to understand how economics work, how you sell, how you reach customers, and how you create business models. That would be really important skills training.

I also think sports programs, as funny as that sounds to be tied to entrepreneurship, are really important because they teach leadership and self-confidence in your physical ability. I think girls' participation and young girls' participation in sports and in programs where they're seen as the idea creator and the leader of themselves are very important to creating that entrepreneurial mindset. I think that is different from a lot of home situations, particularly in different cultures, where they are taught to be of service as opposed to being a leader.

The more opportunities we can create for them to be a leader and to take care of themselves and to get their own ideas into a marketplace, I think, the more entrepreneurial women we will create for future generations.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

That is very helpful. Thank you.

I want to ask Heather Kennedy a similar question, but with regard to the trades.

We have a shortage of skilled tradespeople in every province. In Ontario, we have the highest percentage of students who graduate with B.A.s and then can't find work. These are well-paying jobs that many women, if they took them, would enjoy, and they would have very interesting and lucrative careers. How can we encourage young girls to think about non-traditional fields of study, such as trades?