Evidence of meeting #35 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
4:05 p.m.
President, Canada Board, Air Line Pilots Association
That's what it is in Canada.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
My understanding is that Transport Canada is actually moving to a longer benchmark for pilot proficiency checks. Would that not be true?
4:05 p.m.
Senior Representative, Canada, Air Line Pilots Association
If my recollections are correct, I believe that's true, but with certain conditions in place regarding training in particular. But it has been some time since I've looked at that.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
We'd appreciate some follow-up on that, perhaps, because it seems to be a discrepancy. If we're being told that the international standards are being met but they're not being met—it's certainly not clear with pilot proficiency checks—then that is something this committee would have to grapple with. If there are standards that we're not meeting but we're being told that we're meeting all standards, then there's a problem.
4:05 p.m.
President, Canada Board, Air Line Pilots Association
For the companies we represent, the pilot is required to do a six-month check. There are other airlines that have a slightly different training system, that maybe go for longer periods, but they're being trained more often. I'm not 100% sure on that, but maybe that's what you're alluding to. We can certainly get the information and get it to the committee.
4:10 p.m.
Senior Representative, Canada, Air Line Pilots Association
We could, but I'm wondering if that information is more appropriately obtained through other sources, because we're not the experts.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Okay.
Moving on then, Mr. Laframboise raised the issue of inspection. Most estimates say that about 40% of inspectors with Transport Canada will be retiring over the next five years, and there have been budgetary cutbacks as well. There's a concern here about an overlay of SMS in a situation where the inspection foundation is no longer present.
Are you concerned at all about what Mr. Jean cited, that being the situation in the United Kingdom with SMS? We've heard some reference to Australia and New Zealand and problems they've had there, and about problems in Canada that we're fully aware of.
With SMS in the railway system, for example, we saw a considerable increase in accident rates. In British Columbia, certainly, we've seen a number of deaths and significant accidents. Some folks say the safety standards aren't being maintained to the same degree.
With marine transportation, we also have the sinking of the MV Queen of the North. Concerns have been raised in testimony around the equivalent of an SMS for marine transportation.
Are you concerned at all about these other examples of where SMS has not led to a better, more safely managed system, but actually appears to have led to a more poorly managed system?
4:10 p.m.
President, Canada Board, Air Line Pilots Association
I can only speak for the airline industry. I'm a pilot. I don't work in the other areas, so I'll stick to the airline industry.
SMS, from what we've seen so far, has worked very well. It has led to changes in procedures that would never have happened, unless the pilots or the engineers or whoever works around the aircraft, came forward and identified this potential problem or this error that continuously happens. This would never have been fixed, and the worst-case scenario could have happened. It could have led to a serious incident.
Because of the SMS system, those individuals involved were able to come forward with the information, with no fear of any retribution. It was discussed and the problem was identified. In some areas, it was just a simple matter of changing the order in which a checklist was done. So from what we have seen so far in the airline industry, it's all positive.
4:10 p.m.
Senior Representative, Canada, Air Line Pilots Association
We would add again that we support that the minister or the government must have a strong oversight system in place to make sure it's working as intended.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Getting back to that, that's really the context in which we're discussing it, with attrition rates among inspectors and essentially cutbacks within Transport Canada's capacity to oversee that system. Within that context, would that concern you about putting in place an SMS if there isn't that inspection foundation?
4:10 p.m.
Senior Representative, Canada, Air Line Pilots Association
If the people coming up into a system do not have the expertise, it makes it more essential to have an SMS. You need to have that umbrella framework so that those who are there have all the appropriate skill sets required to oversee the system. In our view, it's even more essential if we're going to have a reduced number of inspectors just because they're not available.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Well, that's assuming the government simply ignores the advice of many people across the country that we have to put in place that foundation. So your preference would be to have a very strong inspection foundation, is that not true?
4:10 p.m.
Senior Representative, Canada, Air Line Pilots Association
We would want it any which way.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Mr. Jeanes, you mentioned a number of areas you're concerned about: the fatigue management; the whistle-blower provisions, or lack thereof; and this balance around SMS that a number of us share. With the bill itself, how would you endeavour to fix those, and can the bill be fixed?
4:10 p.m.
President, Transport 2000 Canada
On your last question, I certainly hope so.
I think with SMS the important thing is that it has to instill a safety culture in the organizations that are going to be responsible for it. That means the idea of a dedicated safety department with a senior or chief safety officer reporting directly to corporate management. This must really be a requirement of the process, because if you bury this function in a line department, subject to budget constraints and below the radar of the corporate management of the airlines, then the safety culture may not be built or may be sacrificed in difficult times—and you've said there will be difficult times. I think you'll hear the same message coming from Justice Moshansky when you talk to him, because he certainly recommended this coming out of the Dryden crash. He believes the introduction of SMS at this time can succeed if it has that kind of corporate culture of safety instilled as part of the process.
February 14th, 2007 / 4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I'm a little confused. My understanding is that we have one of the safest airline industries in the world. The regulations we currently have in place are going to stay, and in fact we're actually tightening them up according to other evidence we've received; we're actually going above the current regulations with this bill, and SMS is a structure that's going to be over the current regulations. And it's not going to be a self-regulating situation, but will consist of the current regulations of Transport Canada along with a safety management system. That is not a self-regulating system, but a system that reads more efficiency and safety in the environment, to my understanding. I see you nodding your heads.
I'll finish up, Mr. Jeanes, but I have one other comment. My understanding is that we are going to have the same audit and same inspection system that is currently in place and that we're asking for more, not less. I am quite concerned, as are the rest of the members on this side of the table, with some of the comments made by Mr. Julian and Mr. Laframboise.
Mr. Chair, we do have someone from Transport Canada who could possibly answer these questions, and though it depends on what the committee wants to do, I would certainly invite him to the table to respond to some of these comments, because they concern me, quite frankly.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
Well, I think we'd like to hear from our current witnesses. I think you've asked a question, and I would ask Mr. Adams to respond and then Mr. Jeanes.
4:15 p.m.
President, Canada Board, Air Line Pilots Association
In our view, SMS is above and beyond the current regulations in place. We think it's a benefit to the safety side of the industry, which is paramount not only to pilots but obviously also to the whole travelling public. Again, it allows you to identify problems that probably wouldn't have been picked up through the traditional methods, and they will be acted upon; it will now be law that they have to be acted upon if they are brought forward, and SMS absolutely has to enhance safety.