Transport Committee on Feb. 14th, 2007

[David Jeanes]

I'm interested in your comment about Canada having a very fine safety record in aviation, which is correct; we do. The public have had confidence in it and must continue to have confidence in it. We've had an allusion from the other side to the problems that have happened with railway deregulation, which has led to a public perception—and certainly a media perception, if you watched W-FIVE on CTV last week—that safety standards have declined very, very markedly in the railway industry in Canada since this kind of deregulation happened.

I would also say, though, that many of the safety provisions that make our airline industry very safe have, unfortunately, resulted from investigations into tragic accidents. Most of the fire measures that are used worldwide now, in terms of smoke detectors in washrooms and emergency exit lighting and so on, stem from the investigation into the Air Canada DC-9 fire in Cincinnati in 1983 that claimed 23 lives. It took an accident to greatly improve the safety of aviation. It's the same with the Dryden crash, as much of the safety of our de-icing procedures today stems from that tragic crash, again with 24 people killed.

One of the leaders in the safety field, Dr. W.O. Miller from the National Transportation Safety Board in the United States, has actually proposed that nations should have the idea of having a TSB-type inquiry on a routine basis every 10 years or so, as though some catastrophe had happened, just to go in and ensure.... And you need the expertise to be able to do that.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I understand that.

[David Jeanes]

I'm sorry if I'm launching off in another direction.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Actually, that's all right.

This isn't the railway industry. It's an industry and it's certainly not in the same context of deregulation. That was a self-regulating situation, and this is not that.

My understanding is Australia went through the same sort of situation with their air.... They deregulated it or let it be self-regulated, and then discovered that they shouldn't have done that and went back to the regulations with an SMS system on top, or something similar, and it was very successful after that. So this is not the same as a railroad industry.

What I'm curious about, Mr. Chair, is if indeed the other committee members would let Transport Canada respond to that, because it is a situation where we could have the witnesses provide information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Mr. Chairman, might I suggest instead that there may be a number of these questions emerging as we go through different meetings and different witnesses. Perhaps we should reserve the ability to reconvene Transport Canada officials, perhaps even the minister, before we conclude and get to our clause-by-clause study. That might be the best way of dealing with these.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Actually, the note I made here is the fact that we do have people here who will take note of the comments and concerns, and then we will probably have Transport come in at the end to answer all the questions collectively.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Before I go to Mr. Bélanger, I attended an air pilots' meeting in the United States this past summer. I hate putting numbers on the record without...but perhaps Mr. LaFlamme can tell me. If I understood it correctly, they said 30 years ago, for one person out of every four million people in the air, there was an accident that caused serious harm; today it's one in 16 million flights. It was an astronomical number that they used, and I never had a chance to question anybody on that.

[Art LaFlamme]

Those numbers are close. I can't say definitely that they're accurate, but they're close, yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

It was just an astronomical number. At that time, I thought that was a pretty amazing number.

Mr. Bélanger.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to go back to your admonition, Mr. Adamus, that essentially you find the legislative language quite broad, subject to these self-regulated organizations or third parties.

If ever there's a matter that has to go before the tribunals, what will be important in the case, undoubtedly, would be the intent of the legislator.

I've reread the clause while this was going on--clause 12. If indeed what you're saying is the intent, it's not reflected in the clause as it is currently before us. So I need to know if you can tell us...and I'm quoting you here:

We have been advised by Transport Canada officials that this provision is meant to address only low-risk, non-air transport areas of the aviation industry.

I'd like you to elaborate here. Who are these officials, and how did they advise you?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

We met with officials of Transport Canada on this bill, and we had some concerns.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Who?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

Merlin Preuss.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

He's the director general, right?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

The director general, yes.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

He was the gentleman who was here on Monday.

[Capt Dan Adamus]

Yes, and we had some concerns in this area. He told us this was not the intent; it was intended for other areas.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Was this exchange ever put in writing?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

No. We are 100% confident that his word means well—

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I'm not doubting that in the least.

[Capt Dan Adamus]

—and I have no reason not to believe him. And besides—

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Hold on, Mr. Adamus, I wouldn't want you to inadvertently give the impression that I am questioning his word either. That's not what I'm trying to do here. I'm just trying to get the facts on the table. Fair enough, sir?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

Fair enough, absolutely.