Evidence of meeting #6 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inspectors.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Have there been major safety violations by major carriers in the past two years, and if so, why were they not prosecuted?
There was the example of Air Canada refueling in the U.S. while the engine was running, with passengers on board. Could you comment on situations like that?
10:35 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
I will just comment on the philosophy behind our enforcement policy with regard to SMS companies, or companies regulated by SMS.
The philosophy is that if a company breaks a rule or a regulation and it is found that this is what happened, we want to give them a chance to analyze the root cause of this happening and to implement something to make sure it won't happen again. Generally speaking, before we go in and give an enforcement action, give a fine, or take action against a certificate, we want to give the company a chance if the mistake was done in a good manner, not in a bad manner.
That said, if we find out that the rule was broken in a negative manner, or wilfully, we will go in and take appropriate enforcement action.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
So do you write up any negative situations, the ones you talk about, and the actions that--
10:35 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
There were a number of situations. Every year we do a lot of enforcements. In fact, we publish all of those enforcement actions on our website.
We did suspend the certificates of operation of a number of carriers. In other cases, we gave 30 days notice of suspension, which means that we gave 30 days notice to a company to give them time to make the appropriate corrections. If they make the appropriate corrections, then we cancel this notice.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Do you have certain procedures in place for revoking operating licences now?
10:35 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
Do we have what? Excuse me...?
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
I mean, are certain procedures in place to revoke operating licences?
10:35 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
Yes, there are.
As a matter of practice, in most cases we issue a press release when the certificate is suspended.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Is it a preventive measure, or is it happening after the safety violation occurred?
10:40 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
Normally it happens after, but it can also happen as a result of an audit that we do within a company. It can happen as a result of a special audit that we do after an accident, for instance. There are a number of factors that could trigger enforcement actions on our part.
10:40 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
I'd like to explore what Mr. Dhaliwal said a little more.
Statistics are important, since we know the unions will also be appearing before us.
In November, the Federal Pilots Association told us that no incidents had been reported by the major carriers since 2007. You talked about accidents. At the beginning of your presentation, you mentioned some figures: 284 accidents in 2007 and 251 accidents in 2008.
First of all, what is the difference between an incident and an accident? Why have the companies reported no incidents since 2007 while, before the SMS was created, the inspectors reported incidents?
Second, what volume are we talking about? You said there were 284 accidents in 2007 and 251 in 2008. How busy was air transportation? Was there an increase or decrease in air traffic from 2007 to 2008? That is all I want to know.
10:40 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
I always like to give you the information right away, but I don't have the figures on traffic volumes right here in my head. We will get back to you with the best possible data on traffic in recent years.
10:40 a.m.
Bloc
10:40 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
We will get it to the chair, of course.
I'm having trouble understanding the other question.
10:40 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
It's about the difference between incidents and accidents.
In November, the people from the Federal Pilots Association told us that no incidents had been reported by the major carriers since 2007. Yet, when the inspectors were doing more work in the field, incidents were reported involving the major carriers. Through the SMS, they try to deal with it internally—you talked about that earlier. Why have they not reported any incidents?
10:40 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
I'm having some trouble answering your question, Mr. Laframboise. With the coming of the SMS, we would normally expect an increase in the number of incidents reported. That is what we see. We have the Civil Aviation Daily Occurrence Reporting System, the CADORS, and I don't think there has been a decrease since 2007.
10:40 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
I'm sorry; I was mistaken in my question.
They said that the carriers have not had to report a single incident, even though the number of incidents had increased. They have not had to make reports. Why not?
10:40 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
They have to make reports. I really don't understand this, and it is the opposite of what I just told you.
If people in a company report an incident, they have to explain to Transport Canada how that incident was dealt with by using their SMS. If a company reports something, whatever it is, from maintenance to operations, the rule is that there must be an explanation of how it was dealt with, what risk analysis was done, and what measures were established to avoid a recurrence. That is what the SMS is all about.
10:40 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
I will have an opportunity to question representatives of the Canadian Federal Pilots Association. Thank you.
10:40 a.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Grégoire referenced a working paper that was presented by Canada for the International Civil Aviation Organization with some conclusions, and I have a copy of that in both official languages to table to the committee, if I may, just for their interest. It has some conclusions, etc., if I may give that to the clerk.
Being one of the people who has been around this table for about five years talking about SMS, over the last year it appears we've seen some changes. We've seen some changes in the direction of the department. Certainly the deputy minister has alluded to some changes the department's going through as far as the implementation of SMS. First, I wonder why. I know the deputy minister has been there, I think, eight or nine months now.
Secondly, what has the department done over the last nine months in relation to the inspectors, the deputy minister? How many inspectors have you had discussions with? What kinds of working groups have you had, and how are you going forward from this stage as a result of those discussions with the inspectors?
I'd like to know how many you've consulted and how many stakeholders in the industry itself.
10:45 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
I believe upwards of 500. There have been 21 sessions dedicated to SMS all across the country. My colleagues, Mr. Grégoire and Mr. McDonald, have gone across the country, and so have I.
It's important to stress that they did these sessions in small groups, because we can have 500 people in one room and we can't really have a debate. The tenor of the conversations with our inspectors was to listen to them, because they are on the ground. They know what's happening on the ground with the operators. They have a sense of how these things are being implemented.
As my colleague said, what we heard is that all our inspectors, all the industry, and all our unions agree that if anything is going to improve the safety of the flying public, that is a very good thing. What we heard is that as we're implementing SMS, we have to make sure our inspectors have the right tools, the right training. Government oversight is absolutely clear, and how it would be implemented is clear, so we are clarifying all those things. We are moving on the training modules, as my colleague has said.
We have changed our approach to our unions. They are our partners in this. There has been new management. Just to clarify, Mr. Martin Eley has been in his job as director general of civil aviation for less than a year, or maybe--
10:45 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
In May.
10:45 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
In May he will be on the job for one year, so he has brought about a lot of changes in terms of the approach to his staff, which is a very welcome change.
We're really focused on filling the vacancies. We have heard it from the unions. We have heard it from our inspectors. Having the right resources, the right amount of resources, is critical. We're filling 98 vacancies in the process and we have been working with the aviation industry on a regular basis. The department has many contacts with industry, with small operators, large operators, so those are all the things we have been doing.
