Evidence of meeting #6 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inspectors.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:45 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
I'm sorry, I'm not exactly sure of the question. Are you asking whether we would support a whistle-blower office?
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
9:45 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
The government already has whistle-blower legislation with a commissioner, and there are avenues for government employees to go to.
However, my view of management is that I'm hoping that before it comes to whistle-blowing, we have systems and processes in our department so that my colleagues who are the managers of the safety and security program and I, as the manager of the department, get to hear from our own people. That's why I mentioned I am having this inspectors advisory group to meet with me, so I hear these things. That's an important issue.
Now, if the issue is whistle-blowing with regard to what is happening in the aviation industry or specific companies, a whole culture change needs to happen. This is not really about whistle-blowing; it is about companies being open and transparent about having a safety incident and taking steps. We want people, we want the companies to come forward. We want to know if they're having safety issues, because if everybody is worried about getting in trouble with the regulator and hiding the problems, then we're not going to have transparency in the system.
I believe in 2008 we got reports of 1.8% more incidents from the aviation industry. This is a small step, but it is showing that the system is starting to change. Companies are letting us know when they're running into problems, so we are fully aware of what's going on in the industry.
So there are two sides to the.... I answered both your questions, but I don't know if I....
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
But contrary to this, we also heard from the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers that mechanics have been disciplined for upholding safety rules against the will of management. Do you believe that's happening, and what has been done about situations like that?
9:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
Yes, of course it is happening, but it should not happen. And I think I testified here a few years ago on that situation, more specifically with rail companies, where we had done an SMS assessment and found out that what we're supposed to have in a company, which is a non-punitive reporting system, a system in place for all employees to report issues and problems as they find them, a system that says that the company must deal with every one of those issues, was not in place.
And this is part of the assessment we do in aviation. So whenever we do an SMS assessment of an airline, this is one of the components we look at. And if a company does not have that, then they don't get a good mark for their SMS assessment and they must correct it.
With companies where that works, the companies have told us they have seen a significant increase in internal reports of issues. And at the same time, many companies told us that while they have seen an increase in reports, they have also seen an increase in morale, because that builds more confidence between the employees and the companies, and that's the way to go to improve safety.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
I also met with the employees from Air Canada. They were saying that Air Canada is going to outsource their maintenance in the coming years to other countries in the developing world. Do you see a negative impact when it comes to our standards here in Canada?
9:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
The company must meet all Canadian standards, and if they outsource, they must still meet all TC safety standards. So for us, there is no difference, as long as the service provider meets the standards. This is why it's also so important to work within the framework of ICAO and to push for better standards throughout the world.
9:50 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Thank you Mr. Chair.
I want to return to the question of fatigue, Mr. Grégoire, because it is just too important.
The 2001 report recommended that you take action on this issue. I return to Mr. Eley's statement about the fatigue study: “The decision was made at that time not to move forward on the conclusion of those studies.”
You told us earlier that over the past decade you have communicated a lot with people in the industry and your own inspectors. You have been working, but in the past 10 years there still have been 12 fatigue-related accidents that caused 28 deaths. You are saying that the Transportation Safety Bureau has never made a recommendation. You also told us that in the Sept-Îles case, the pilot admitted he had been working for 18 consecutive hours.
In the past 10 years, have you never heard talk about the fact that there is an active system in this industry to falsify logbooks in order to conform to the rules? You have seen what is happening. Many pilots have told us that they falsified their logbooks. Are you trying to tell me that you have never heard of scheduling problems or tampering with logbooks in this industry?
9:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
I am not prepared to say that it never happens, but obviously, when such cases are discovered during logbook inspections, we take the appropriate steps to apply the law. As for knowing whether the problem has been the same in recent years as it was during the previous 20 or 30 years, I can tell you that it was not the case at all. I was a pilot in the industry myself, in the late 1970s and early 1980s. At that time, there was a very serious problem with flying hours. That problem was corrected when the regulations were implemented in 1995. Most pilots respect these regulations. Some pilots disobey them and falsify their logbooks, but the same problem can turn up in road or rail transport, where there are also regulations on working hours. It is very difficult to detect, but sometimes someone will blow the whistle on a co-worker. It is also possible to detect falsification during a thorough inspection.
9:55 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
The fact remains that in 2001 a report indicated that there was a problem. You say you believe, in the light of your personal experience, that there was no problem. But there was one. That is what the Transportation Safety Bureau tells us.
Your director of civil aviation tells us that Transport Canada decided not to bother with this issue. That is a choice you made, but the result was that, within the safety management system you set up, people did not take this situation very seriously. In fact, it was not a priority for your department. In theory, the SMS should also cover any problems related to maintaining logbooks, shouldn't it?
9:55 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
No one has ever brought any problems with pilot logbooks to my attention.
9:55 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
And yet, theoretically, the SMS should take care of that. Ensuring that pilots obey the law should also be part of each company's activities.
9:55 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
I agree with you completely. I don't think it is necessary to keep on eternally wondering what happened in 2001. As you said, the department believed it wasn't a priority. In spite of everything, the department did the work and the research and recommended that the industry use the tools it has made available on its Internet site. The department then said that it was going to review the regulations thoroughly and would set up a working group in June. It is useless to ask why this wasn't a priority. It wasn't a priority at the time, but now it has been decided that it is a priority and it must be dealt with quickly.
9:55 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
So, you don't want me to ask you any more questions about it. I will stop asking questions, then, Mr. Grégoire.
9:55 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
No, you can ask questions, Mr. Laframboise, but I can't give you any better answers.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
Just before I turn to Ms. Brown, could you tell me if it's possible for a pilot to work for two companies at the same time?
9:55 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
Yes, it is.
9:55 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
If you do so, you're supposed to report to both companies the number of hours you have flown, so that both will make sure you don't exceed the maximum allowable hours you can fly on a daily, monthly, 90-day, and yearly basis, as per the regulations.
March 30th, 2010 / 9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here.
Prior to my election a year and a half ago, I worked in the health and safety industry. Our company provided consultations on health and safety to many of Canada's largest companies, including in the manufacturing industry, forestry industry, and food industry, given that everybody has incidents. Our area of focus was on return-to-work programs and on providing companies assistance with workers compensation, basically in any province. However, over the time that we've been in business, we have seen a real evolution in safety—and it's an issue of safety management, because it's a matter of risk assessment in whatever industry you're in. For example, we've seen a change in the medical system, as we now engage ergonomists, kinesiologists, and physiologists, all of whom are involved in the return-to-work process.
However, what has always been the case is that it's been an incident, or sometimes a catastrophe, that brings our services in the door. What a company has to do first of all is an audit of the system it has in place, an assessment of its compliance with the regulations, and then constantly to do that review and audit process, so the company is constantly improving.
I guess my first question for you deals with the point that the change in the medical system that we've seen is also happening in technology. There's an evolution going on in the aviation industry as well, where companies must always be doing their assessments, coming into compliance, reviewing their processes and putting in place new ones. So I wonder if you could speak, first of all, to how technology is changing this for the aviation industry.
Second, how is Transport Canada ensuring that SMS is being followed properly, given that, as in the health and safety area, there are any number of providers who put together manuals or documentation to meet the regulations? How is Transport Canada doing that constant assessment of the industry to ensure that is in place?
10 a.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Transport
Mr. Chair, the honourable member is correct about changes in regulatory approaches and about the evolution all systems in the world have been going through.
In aviation, technology is a critical element in terms of ensuring safety. As technology improves, human error is reduced. However, incidents and accidents in aviation are also because of human error, organizational error, and environmental issues. We have found that prescriptive regulations don't always ensure safety, because you can't anticipate everything. You can't say that you have to do only A, B, C, D, E, and F. There are other things. What if there is a G?
The theory behind SMS is exactly what you have said: It is to ingrain safety as a culture in an organization in its day-to-day operations. It's very important to be clear. I don't think I'm saying anything new to this committee, which has done a lot of in-depth work. SMS is not about having no government oversight. It is about proper government oversight. It is about using our resources in the weakest areas. It is not about deregulation. It is about smarter regulation. It is not about self-regulation by industry. There is a role for the industry to play, but oversight is extremely important.
In that context, as we are looking to implement SMS, that is an important thing to remember. When you're putting in place new systems and new procedures, sometimes telling the whole story is forgotten. I think that's something we hear from the industry, but we also hear it from our own staff.
Marc, would you like to add something on technology?
10 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security Group, Department of Transport
I'll just add a few points.
I was thinking of hiring you when I heard your question.
First of all, on technology, there are two points. We have depended largely, over the last 50 years, on technological improvements in aviation to improve our safety record. For instance, when the jet engine was brought in to replace the old propeller large aircraft, the accident rate was reduced significantly. What we find now is that we think we are almost at the end of the technological improvements. We need to focus far more on human factors, on the analysis of risk, and as you mentioned, on more proactive analysis of what could happen to prevent accidents rather than on why accidents have happened. This is really key in the implementation of SMS within industry.