Evidence of meeting #8 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I will stay on this pilot fatigue issue. You look at the regulations and whether the regulations are followed closely. When we look at the pilot hours reporting, it's really done once a month. Is that frequent enough?
10:10 a.m.
Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
I'll start out, and then you can hear from the real expert.
We would look at these issues in a particular investigation, and if we found it played a role, we would comment on whether the rules were sufficient or whether there was a safety deficiency that needed to be addressed. But in terms of the particulars of pilot practices, I'll leave it to Mark.
10:10 a.m.
Director of Investigations, Air, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Transport Canada regulations require that pilots keep track of their hours and the times they fly and report them to the companies. It's up to Transport Canada to do the oversight on the companies and the pilots to ensure they're doing their job in keeping track of those hours.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
But from your investigations, do you think that reporting once a month is sufficient?
10:10 a.m.
Director of Investigations, Air, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
It's not the actual reporting time that's sufficient; it's whether or not the pilots or the companies are following the rules.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
10:10 a.m.
Director of Investigations, Air, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
We have found in some investigations that some pilots and some companies did not follow the rules.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Does Transport Canada have sufficient resources to monitor safety programs?
10:10 a.m.
Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
I don't think we are the best witnesses to answer that question, sir. We would look at oversight in a number of investigations--and we have. We would comment on whether the oversight was sufficient, as we did in a couple of investigations that have been made public in the last year or so. But to generally look at the resources of Transport Canada, I will leave that to others.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
If not the resources, what about your training? When it comes to Transport Canada inspectors, do you believe they are sufficiently trained?
10:10 a.m.
Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
We have not found any evidence, in any of our investigations, of insufficient training of Transport Canada inspectors.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
In the last couple of meetings we talked about whistle-blower legislation. In your opinion, would it improve safety in the transport sector?
10:15 a.m.
Chair, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
I'm going to let Mr. Laporte answer. He's feeling lonely over here, so we'll let him address that, because he's well versed in it.
10:15 a.m.
Jean Laporte Chief Operating Officer, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
There are already two mechanisms in place. Within SMS programs there is a requirement for each and every operator to implement a non-punitive reporting mechanism, whereby employees can identify safety issues so they can be addressed on a proactive basis by the company. That's one mechanism.
Totally separate from that and totally unrelated to SMS, the Transportation Safety Board has a confidential reporting program called SECURITAS. That program has been in place since the inception of our organization 20 years ago. It is up and running, and we address all the reports filed to us through that program. So there are already mechanisms in place to deal with whistle-blowing.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Thank you.
On the flight fatigue issue, if we look at the New Zealand model, they will cancel a flight if the pilots are fatigued or overbooked. Do you see that happening here locally in Canada as well?
10:15 a.m.
Director of Investigations, Air, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Yes.
10:15 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Laporte, have you examined the evidence heard in committee in recent weeks given, by union representatives, among others?
10:15 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Mr. Dhaliwal told us about whistle-blowers. As you read, you understood that, from the way in which the regulations and the directives are written and the way all the safety management systems are designed, there is no protection for whistle-blowers. They clearly tell us that they're making recommendations and this is not being taken into account. Whistle-blowers are afraid of reprisals. Can we see this in the investigations?
Otherwise, once you have examined it, will you pay more attention in future investigations to see whether there might have been some whistle-blowing on an issue? Can you follow up all that? From the way the system is designed, can you see whether there has been any whistle-blowing or is that practically impossible to determine?
April 13th, 2010 / 10:15 a.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
In the context of our investigations, we examine the implementation of the safety management system. We ask the questions and we request the appropriate documentation from the companies in question in order to obtain all available information and to assess whether the system works as it should. That's something we are currently examining and that we will continue to examine in our investigations as the industry implements the SMS system.
10:15 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
As you know, it's much more structured in the United States. There is a lot more protection for whistle-blowers. You didn't analyze what is going on elsewhere in the world and you aren't yet at the stage where you can make recommendations and say that the entire system is based on voluntary statements. These are voluntary statements, but if the boss doesn't take them into account or, even worse, if he uses reprisals against an employee who dared make a statement about something that wasn't right with the equipment, there's a problem.
You haven't yet got to the point where you're recommending that the government draw on the U.S. regulations and protect the employee.
10:15 a.m.
Chief Operating Officer, Transportation Safety Board of Canada
For the moment, we haven't identified any systemic problems of that kind that would provide a sufficient basis for specific recommendations. However, as I mentioned earlier, we have a completely distinct system in place, our SECURITAS program, as a result of which people can make confidential disclosures. We are conducting appropriate follow-up through this mechanism. An alternative is available for employees who work in the industry.
