Evidence of meeting #23 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was innovation.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Geoff Munro  Chief Scientist and Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Ian Potter  Vice-President, Engineering, National Research Council Canada
Paul Treboutat  Director General, Centre for Surface Transportation Technology, National Research Council Canada

10:20 a.m.

Director General, Centre for Surface Transportation Technology, National Research Council Canada

Paul Treboutat

Passenger rail is not something that is regulated by Transport Canada. It's something that is done on a municipal level, as I understand it, in the industry. We've increasingly been working with transit authorities to help them around challenges that they continue to have in the wheel-rail interface with the smooth operation of their equipment and with capital costs.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Go ahead, Monsieur Coderre.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Munro, I have a question regarding efficiency in your report on the road map regarding electricity. As a matter of fact, it's to compare natural gas versus electricity.

They're saying, rightly, that if you're using an electric motor, it would transform up to 90% of the energy into traction energy. They're saying here that if we're using

gas and a gas engine, only 30% of the energy would be transformed into traction energy.

If you look at the difference between the electric motor versus the natural gas motor, do we have some numbers on the efficiency of those natural gas motors?

10:25 a.m.

Chief Scientist and Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Geoff Munro

Yes, we do, but if you have both documents, I think you'll find the specifics in there.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

I just received it. I'm sorry.

10:25 a.m.

Chief Scientist and Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Geoff Munro

Fair enough.

I don't have the figures off the top of my head.

A natural gas motor is not going to convert the energy at the same rate, but there are range challenges associated with using electricity to drive major route trucks and that kind of thing. Looking ahead at innovation in the transportation sector, we saw natural gas being an appropriate and significant interim step until we get to the point where we can use other forms of drive.

The percentages should be in this document, and if they're not explicitly there, I'll make sure they're provided to the committee.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Personally, I think we should use both. In relation to efficiency, would it be okay to suggest that for local or public transport, it would be more efficient to use electric motors, while for longer runs and bigger transportation, it's more efficient to use natural gas? I mean aside from the environmental issue, and just based on efficiency.

10:25 a.m.

Chief Scientist and Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Geoff Munro

Just based on efficiency, the general trend of what you've just said is correct. The only additional parameter I would include would be weight.

What weight are you carrying? What are you trying to move? If you're trying to move a fairly large vehicle—think of garbage pickup in the urban environment—you may find that you don't have an efficient overall capacity using an electricity-driven truck. Hence, you might want to use natural gas, just because of labour time and the efficiency of the actual function you're trying to put together.

If you did a truck-for-truck comparison, it might be more efficient, but if you look at the function, it might not be, because of the weight you're carrying. Therein lies the rationale for why we looked at the two basic functions of return-to-base vehicles for natural gas in the medium- and heavy-duty area and then the long-haul heavy-duty vehicles.

Largely, as the technology advances for infrastructure, carrying heavy weight, and range, the switch to electric may come. It's hard to predict when electric vehicles might be capable of doing those heavier-weight but local jobs. As I said, I think natural gas is a legitimate transformation now from gasoline or diesel, but it is interim in terms of moving to a longer-term solution.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

The longer-term solution would be electricity—

10:25 a.m.

Chief Scientist and Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Geoff Munro

Yes, that's right, with what we know today.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

—because it's renewable?

10:25 a.m.

Chief Scientist and Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Geoff Munro

That's right.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Go ahead, Mr. Poilievre.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

My questions will start on natural gas-powered vehicles.

What is the unit per kilometre cost comparison between natural gas and diesel? You don't have to be down to the penny; I know that these prices fluctuate based on the daily markets, but give me a....

10:25 a.m.

Chief Scientist and Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Geoff Munro

They do. You're right. However, to get the same amount of energy as is in a litre of diesel from CNG, compressed natural gas, you're basically looking at just a bit under a cubic metre, which would cost about 35¢ less than a litre of diesel, so—

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

In percentage terms, that's what? Give me a ballpark figure, if you can.

10:25 a.m.

Chief Scientist and Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Geoff Munro

Well, if you did one-for-one on the energy you need, it's going to be 35¢ less per litre, so—

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

Okay. What's diesel trading at per litre now?

10:25 a.m.

Chief Scientist and Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Geoff Munro

It's at $1.20, I would say, or something like that.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

Then we're talking about a 25%—

10:25 a.m.

Chief Scientist and Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Geoff Munro

It's a reduction of 20% to 25%.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

When were those data...?

10:25 a.m.

Chief Scientist and Assistant Deputy Minister, Innovation and Energy Technology Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Geoff Munro

It's a relatively current price. It's within the last few weeks.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

Okay. We have natural gas levels in our North American continental market at extremely low levels right now, at $3 or $4 or something like that, or even lower—