Evidence of meeting #25 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was propane.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sam Shaw  Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation
Jim Facette  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Propane Association

9:55 a.m.

Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation

Dr. Sam Shaw

I'm not sure why they would want to do that. Basically, you are looking at the volume of natural gas and how it is transferred, whether it's to your barbecue or your vehicle. There certainly isn't enough of a market right now on the home refuelling side.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

I have to stop you there.

Go ahead, Mr. Sullivan.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our guests.

I am the electricity guy here in terms of transportation. I view what you're suggesting as a kind of stopgap between gasoline and electricity, because eventually, that's what it's going to have to be. By 2050, the goal is to reduce our carbon dioxide emissions by 75%, not 20%, so we need to either stop travelling or use a different source of energy for our transportation needs. The only one currently that provides something like a 75% reduction is electricity.

In the meantime, there are some forms of transportation in this country that aren't easily convertible to electricity. One of them is in the marine industry, and the other is the rail locomotive. Is there any research or development on either propane or natural gas rail vehicles or large ocean-going or Great Lakes freighters?

9:55 a.m.

Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation

Dr. Sam Shaw

In my presentation, I alluded to marine engines and rail operating on LNG right now.There are at least 26 marine vessels operating on LNG, and there are more to come. That's for two reasons: the environmental footprint and the cost. It is happening, and it's certainly happening in a lot of jurisdictions, particularly in the U.S.

In fact, a great example is a locomotive operating on LNG that is carrying coal for a coal-fired generation plant in the U.S., so there you go.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Okay.

Mr. Facette, would you like to comment?

9:55 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Propane Association

Jim Facette

I'll get back to you with a more complete answer on the marine and rail applications. I don't have any data in front of me at the moment.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Are you in conversations with CN, CP, Via, and GO Transit, for example? Right now GO Transit is having to convert all its engines from tier 2 to tier 4; it's a significant expense and a significant hassle, and now that Electro Motive Diesel has fled the country, they have to go to the U.S. to get that done.

Would conversion to liquefied natural gas achieve the same ends?

9:55 a.m.

Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation

Dr. Sam Shaw

I can't comment on GO and I'm under a confidentiality agreement with an individual company. I can only tell you that there are companies looking at LNG because the price is right and the environmental footprint is lower.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

How different is the environmental footprint?

9:55 a.m.

Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation

Dr. Sam Shaw

In tractor-trailers, it's roughly a 30% decrease in carbon dioxide emissions.

The big thing, again, is really looking at NOx, SOx, mercury, and particulate, and the EPA is looking at the particulate, particularly in the north. Look at that dark cloud cover on the ice up there; that's the PM2.5. That soot is really creating havoc in terms of global emissions.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

An electricity generating plant in southern Ontario was stopped as a result of too much PM2.5 out of a natural gas plant. Compared to a tier 4 diesel engine, what's the output?

10 a.m.

Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation

Dr. Sam Shaw

I don't have those numbers.

10 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Can you get them?

10 a.m.

Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation

Dr. Sam Shaw

We might be able to.

10 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

Okay. Have you looked into PM1.0 and PM0.1?

10 a.m.

Vice-President, Natural Gas Policy Development, Encana Corporation

Dr. Sam Shaw

No, we haven't done that. We're trying to facilitate the conversation around natural gas, but in terms of looking at the specifics, we haven't been involved.

10 a.m.

NDP

Mike Sullivan NDP York South—Weston, ON

In terms of safety, we talked about home fuel. We in Toronto are mindful of the safety of propane in particular. I witnessed the Mississauga train derailment first-hand and saw the cars going up in the air, and we had the disaster just north of my riding in central Toronto in 2008. A number of individuals don't believe the industry can regulate itself.

Fuelling by yourself seems to be something that's going to have some public backlash because of these kinds of things. There was a disaster in Trenton as well, I believe, when a propane storage facility blew up.

10 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Propane Association

Jim Facette

Mr. Chair, any time you mishandle any fuel, you're going to have an accident. What happened at a facility in Toronto was probably the result of some things not being done as they should have been done. It should not paint the industry or the players that are there today, or the product itself. It was a most unfortunate and regrettable accident. Eight people died in 2003 from a natural gas explosion as well. If you mishandle fuel of any type, catastrophes could happen, and it's most unfortunate.

Propane is a safe product when handled properly according to regulations, and the codes and standards exist today to do just that. It's a natural process. You could argue that propane is a natural gas unto itself.

It's safe. I have three barbecue tanks in my backyard. I have natural gas running through my entire neighbourhood, and—God forbid—if something happened to one house on a natural gas line, it's going to happen to all the houses if something goes wrong, and that's regrettable.

It's a fuel. Any fuel, even CNG, compressed natural gas, is under pressure; if that pressure gets compromised, guess what's going to happen? Tragically, unfortunate incidents are going to happen. The key is to follow the code and make sure people are properly trained, be they mechanics or anybody else. People understand that it is safe when handled properly and that technology exists to ensure the safety's there. Enforcement is also a part of it.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Mr. Adler is next.

March 6th, 2012 / 10 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you both witnesses for appearing here today.

In the first part of my questioning I want to follow up a little on what Mr. Sullivan was alluding to.

Before I represented my riding, there was the Sunrise Propane explosion. I know they suspect the cause was a leak in the hose transferring natural gas from one truck to another. Two people died as a result.

Could you comment on the regulations around such facilities? I know they are not necessarily federal regulations. A lot of them are provincial and municipal.

10 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Propane Association

Jim Facette

In the province of today, every propane facility of any size must have something called a risk and safety management plan. There are two types: one for larger facilities that have more than 5,000 U.S. water gallons on site, and one for those that have less than 5,000 U.S. water gallons on site. The regulations through the TSSA and the Canadian Standards Association—the B149 code, the B51, and the B620, which handles transportation—exist today to prevent accidents from happening. The key is always, as in anything else, safety first, safety first. You have to develop a culture of safety. That is number one.

The standards are already there. People are already handling it safely. No more regulation is required. All the stuff is in place. Different parts of the country are looking at what Ontario and other jurisdictions are doing to ensure that safety. In the province of British Columbia, we have a safety authority that tells industry, “You must adhere to our safety act. That said, if you want to get from here to there differently, come talk to us”, so they take what one might describe as an alternative approach to the more traditional, very prescriptive one.

The regulations already exist and the oversight's there. No more is needed. Tragically, it is alleged that some things.... Maybe corners were cut. It's in a court of law, and one has to be careful right now. An incident happened, and unfortunately that always comes up when you talk about propane. It comes up all the time, so we face it first-hand.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON

People are a bit reluctant around propane just because it's a gas and has explosive properties. It makes people a little jittery.

In your opinion, placing it in residential neighbourhoods is okay.

10:05 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Propane Association

Jim Facette

It's done now. You can actually put together a propane grid for a residential community. You won't see the tank in your home. When you turn on your dryer, your fireplace, or your cooktop, it's all on propane. It's perfectly safe. It comes in as a liquid, like anything else, just like methane or natural gas.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

Mark Adler Conservative York Centre, ON

So the tank would be on your property—

10:05 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Propane Association

Jim Facette

Not necessarily. It doesn't have to be. It could be off-site.