Evidence of meeting #23 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was goods.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:40 a.m.
Fire Chief, County of Brant Fire Department, and First Vice-President, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
Yes, I guess—
9:40 a.m.
Fire Chief, County of Brant Fire Department, and First Vice-President, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
—I should mention something similar to what my colleague said. The easy answer is yes. There are very diverse means of combatting various types of dangerous goods and/or chemicals that are transported, and that philosophy doesn't change whether it's rail, shipping, road, or air. There are various types of....
9:40 a.m.
Fire Chief, County of Brant Fire Department, and First Vice-President, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
Essentially we can say that some urban centres, because of the reality of budgets and preparation and training and those kinds of things, are better suited to deal with the myriad different types of chemicals that may go through. For some of the rural departments I mentioned, which are fundraising to buy equipment and/or operate on a daily basis, obviously even getting access to class B foam to respond to a specialized incident becomes a challenge.
There are various ways of dealing with incidents, and there are sustainability factors. I talked about the awareness level, operations level, and technician's level. In many cases there are those mutual aid support components from large urban centres that would come and assist in much the same way as they did in Lac-Mégantic. But yes, there are many different appliances, different types of foam adductors, and different types of water curtains. The way the guidelines are set out in that response, specific to our ERG or our contact in CANUTEC, can provide that information.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
How much response time do you have, or what's the critical response time?
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Larry Miller
I'm sorry, Mr. Watson. You're well over.
Mr. Komarnicki, go ahead for seven minutes, please.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
Thank you very much for your presentation.
The couple of questions I have are with respect to our firemen volunteers. Of course, many small communities, like the one I come from, deal with volunteers for the most part.
I liked your comment. You said that preventative measures in planning should take place not during an emergency, but before one happens. You applauded, of course, the minister's announcement regarding a task force to determine how to strengthen emergency response capacity.
It seems to me that when one is dealing with various capabilities, various resources across the country, it becomes important particularly, perhaps, on an issue we have in my city where we have a transload facility. Before one goes into a city you generally want to be sure you have an emergency response plan that is effective for that, yet somehow we find that these do take place while discussions are taking place about response capacity.
I know in the instance I'm looking at there were some issues about the water supply on site, and you mentioned that was a fairly important thing. Whether the couplings in the water containment facility match the fire department's equipment was an important one, and whether the city had a water line coming in or not was an important consideration. They're still talking about that.
Let me ask you this. For the emergency response plan that the task force will be talking about, would there not be some objective standards where you would say that you would have to have (a), (b), (c), and (d) in place before you had a transload facility? What might (a), (b), and (c) be, and is that something that should be incorporated when you're dealing with various kinds of goods?
Would you like to make a comment on that?
9:45 a.m.
Fire Chief, County of Brant Fire Department, and First Vice-President, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
Yes, and there is no really short answer to this, but I'm going to turn this one over to Chris Powers. Chris has worked on the transportation of dangerous goods advisory council for over 15 years and has represented us on the ERAP working group, so I'm going to ask Chris to answer this question.
9:45 a.m.
Retired Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
Thank you.
The issue of the transload didn't initially come up with the review from the ERAP working group, but it certainly has been identified as a concern, particularly in western Canada because apparently there are about 80 transloads currently in place and being constructed, some very small and some very large.
Because they're a fixed facility it has a different connotation than rail transportation. If you look at a number of issues, there is zoning. What is the appropriate location for that transload with respect to residential development, and what have you? Is water supply there?
The Railway Association identified the fact that they're concerned there doesn't seem to be, and I haven't identified, any particular standards to which transloads should be built or protected. So it is a concern, but because it's a fixed facility I think we have to look at fire code, building code, and zoning requirements to make sure that this municipality has the resources or that the transload facility installs the fire protection systems to mitigate any incident.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
It seems to me that before you place a transload facility anywhere, shouldn't you have some specific standards in place that have to be met before that happens?
9:45 a.m.
Retired Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
Yes, I would agree.
The trouble is that there doesn't seem to be, at this time, any identified standard to which they're built. There may be. I've asked the National Fire Protection Association, which writes most of the standards for fire protection, to research that and advise us if they're aware of transload standard construction facilities and fire protection requirements. I haven't heard back from them but this is a big issue and some of these facilities are multi-track unit train types of facilities, and these are where these products are being loaded. So if something happens there, you could have a major incident and that is certainly a concern.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
The second concern, obviously...if you have a standard, which you should have before you actually go into the place. Assuming you had a standard and there were certain requirements—and we talked about water lines and things like that, that have to be in place—who pays for ensuring that the capacity and the resources are there?
9:45 a.m.
Retired Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
Basically, because it's a fixed facility, in most instances it's the property owner. For example, in a building, if you're required to have sprinkler systems or fire alarm systems, it's a cost of the construction of the building. So it should be the property owner and they may have to put in fire pumps, and foam systems, and water supplies as opposed to having the general taxpayers pick up the cost. So that's certainly a concern. I think some small municipalities in the rural areas where these are being built probably don't have the resources to do that kind of research and requirement.
So it's something that needs to be looked at. I know Transport Canada identified it a couple of years ago as a concern, but I don't know if they have the resources to do the research on that at this time. So we're trying to investigate some of the needs for that protection of those facilities.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
Specifically, what is your task force doing with respect to these transload facilities as they relate to western Canada and to not only the ones that are existing but the proposed extensions?
9:50 a.m.
Retired Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
The task force's terms of reference haven't been finalized, but certainly if that's one of the areas that needs to be looked at I suggest that it should be included in the terms of reference as part of the work.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Ed Komarnicki Conservative Souris—Moose Mountain, SK
Thank you. Do I have more time?
With respect to Mr. Benson, I know that obviously safety management systems are important and safety values have to be entrenched in the minds of not only the management but the employees as well. At all operational levels that must be displayed. So it is important to have a buy-in by employees for sure. Any safety concerns must be elevated right to the top of the organization without fear of reprisal or any recrimination or retribution and so on. It's important.
It is somewhat remarkable that you're saying we haven't got to that place. I look at a relatively simple matter, the use of on-board voice and video recorders to strengthen safety management systems. Your members would object to that happening when legislation states that it cannot be used for any other purposes than the investigation of accidents and to deal with that. Now you may ask if there is a probative value to it, but most would say that empirically there would be some probative value to it that should trump privacy concerns you may have. Why would you not be prepared to let safety take priority? This is a good place to start. It's a very narrow issue. Why can't we cross that hurdle, notwithstanding that there are other hurdles to cross?
I know, Mr. Beatty, you were going to conclude and didn't have the opportunity, so I'll give you that opportunity now.
9:50 a.m.
Lobbyist, Teamsters Canada
If I could comment for a second, it was the industry, including railways, including Transport Canada, that felt that there was no probative value. That's not the Teamsters talking, and the privacy is the law of the land.
I'll leave the rest to Mr. Beatty.
9:50 a.m.
President, Teamsters Canada Rail Conference, Teamsters Canada
Sure. So first off, I don't know where that came from, that we're against LVVR, voice and video recording. We've never made that statement. In fact, I have meetings coming up with the TSB. My own executive is meeting today and tomorrow to give a position on that. So we think that there may be value there for LVVR.
I don't want this committee to take away that we're against it. That is definitely not the case at this point.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Welcome to all of the witnesses.
First of all, I would like to ask you new questions, Mr. Boissonneault and Mr. Powers, on the way that the owners of goods and shippers contribute in both financial and material ways to the Emergency Response Assistance Plan. We know that they participate in insurance coverage. You said that the cost to train volunteer firefighters and first responders is quite high. Do these persons and groups contribute financially to that?
9:50 a.m.
Fire Chief, County of Brant Fire Department, and First Vice-President, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
There's certainly the ongoing collaboration that we're using our association to be the conduit for the fire departments across Canada. We're working with various stakeholders to try to increase those training and information-sharing possibilities. That is going to be part of this process as we move forward. I believe that any large-scale incident creates a precedence for which we have a duty to act, and when I say “we have a duty”, that's everyone in this room. That's collectively everyone.
9:50 a.m.
NDP
Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
Currently, do goods owners or shippers contribute financially or materially to preventive measures and to the training of first responders?
9:50 a.m.
Retired Fire Chief, Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs
To expand on that, the ERAP process includes a requirement for training and resources to be provided. That's why we look at the ERAP as a key to making sure that when an incident occurs, those resources are provided by the transporters or the shippers of the product and that it doesn't become a cost to the local municipality. For example, in Lac-Mégantic, the foam came from Irving and Valero refiners, we believe.
The ERAP program should be a requirement, and that includes the provision of training to first responders, in our view.
9:55 a.m.
NDP
Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
Thank you very much.
I would now like to talk about these emergency plans. My riding has this particularity: all of the railways run through the Saint-Pierre district, in the borough of Lachine, and they carry many dangerous goods.
In what way are our citizens kept informed of these emergency plans? The only way to leave this district is by using roads that follow the railways. If there were a spill of dangerous goods, it would be impossible to get out. How do you inform citizens on the measures to take in the event of a spill or an accident?